Author Topic: The Build of Elway 5 no.3  (Read 126255 times)

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Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2009, 12:29:37 PM »
The beams have a core of High density foam.

The front beams have a masive 4 layers of uni all round, 1 layer top and bottom and a layer of weave all round on them.   The aft beams have 2 less layers of uni all round than the front.  They are quite solid.

Low density foam fairings to be added. I preffer these to hollow carbon fairings.  I didn't want water to get trapped in parts of the structure.  That would add more weight when sailing than the extra foam.

I don't quite get the significance of your comment on the track Will. Could you explain.

I Have not decided weather to go for the track horizontally or angled up at 30, 45 or 60 degrees.  All will work however some will push the car a few centimeters forward and others will push it up.

Offline Will_Lee

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2009, 09:12:51 AM »
Our wing supports  stuck a little forward of the mast stump, so the obvious place to put the track was above that. You don't have that barrier, so the track can go lower, which means an easier time attaching the ends of the track. The Atum method was a 30mm length of carbon tube on each gunwhale, carboned down. The track was threaded through the little tubes, attached in the middle, the tubes were bogged down and later carboned.

On Antidote, because the gunwales are lower and the centre of the track is higher, there are prominent ears to support the end of the track. This was tricky to get right.

If you try the Atum method, the good bits are no ears, and an easier time fitting the track because it can be fitted without cutting it. The risks are a lower jib may have trouble getting over the kite hoop if yours is prominent (though a lower jib is good for other reasons), and a lower jib track may obstruct the spinnaker a bit in the sock as it dropped.

As far as angle goes, ours is probably about 60 degs to horizontal, and I am reasonably sure that a straight up one would work.

Theory is as follows:

1) A jib clew has two edges coming into it: Leech and Foot. Topologically these are the same (that is you could have a jib where the foot and the leech are the same length)
2) This means that the fundamental angle of a track is 'relative to the bisection of the angle of the foot and leech' rather than up or down.
3) The major issue with jib tracks is whether the car goes right to the end or not. If not, then you have a problem like rope self tackers.
4) If jib tracks flat on the deck work, it follows vertical ones will work too, especially as leech tension is at least as much as foot tension in a jib.

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2009, 12:26:28 PM »
Doing fiddly bits now.

Finished the rudder stock last week.  447grams without final clear coat layer. Now reckon I could make one lighter.

Yesterday i was sorting out the pivots for the gantry and carbonning the snout tube to the hull.

I had a thought that I could save some weight by making the horizontal gantry pivots from thin carbon tube instead of stainless steel.  the tube would be in sheer only due to my attention to getting a good fit.  I may fit a smaller bolt through the tube initially but there would still be a net weight saving.

Thinking laterally I wondered if I could substitute the rudder pin for a carbon tube with perhaps a bolt bonded in top and bottom.   It would save a lot of weight but I suspect the thoughts on this would be 'no way it's going to break!

These ideas would save me from getting pins made specifically. because I can buy carbon tube from a kite shop and bolts from a chandlery.

Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2009, 04:51:11 PM »
carbon kite spars are extruded normally? And tend to split very easily in my experience. Don't think I be going that way myself.

Offline Will_Lee

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2009, 06:10:32 PM »
I'd like to see this, because it may work but everyone else has been too chicken to try it!

You don't need to get stainless rudder pins made - you can buy a length or blag some off someone (we have some) and dome, split, notch or drill the end.

On Atums one we notched the end of the rod about 5mm in from the end with an angle grinder and hammered a thick washer on from the end with a hole that is a bit too small. Currently we have a hole drilled across the end into which a bolt goes. Other approached include splitting the end with an angel grinder and then bending out the remainder with a cold chisel, to make something that looks a little like a palm tree. If you like it ugly then a blob of polymorph blobbed round the notched end also works.

If you want to buy your own you can get it from (non-sailing) RS.  I think the last lot cost £60 quid and was 5 lengths of 1.5m each. That makes a lot of rudder pins! YOu may be able to get smaler quantities. Ebay may provide.

Offline Graham Bridle

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2009, 07:44:19 PM »
I got 50cm of 10mm diameter stainless rod from Ebay recently, for about a fiver. Its come in right handy !

Try this link http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/paulv1255_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ

roland_trim

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2009, 10:29:16 PM »
If you like it ugly then a blob of polymorph blobbed round the notched end also works.
Careful I might take a fence at that  ::)

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2009, 07:52:30 AM »
If the stock or back of boat is thick enough to take the twisting of the pin then you could just use two bolts with nothing in the middle.

I just rounded off the end of the rod and drilled a 3mm hole in each end for a split ring
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Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2009, 08:00:09 AM »
you can always use a thread tap on the end of the rod and put a nylock on it for a pimp finish. Tap & Die sets are cheap from ScrewFix:

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/12080/Hand-Tools/Tap-Die-Sets/Carbon-Steel-Tap-Die-Set-16Pc

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2009, 09:34:30 AM »
i was aiming at the pimp finish so will investigate the tap and dye set. Thanks Daryl.

For the gantry pins I will try the kite tube with bolts inside.  both the connections from the gantry to the transom has 3cm of bearing on the transom 2cm bearing on the gantry and another 3cm bearing on the transom. it's going to be a tight finish so all the force will be in shear.

I realise that the extruded carbon kite tubing may not be quite so strong.  I suppose the optimum is winding lots of fibres in a + - 45 direction around a thinner rod or tube. One way to pass a quiet evening!

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2009, 10:18:14 AM »
For the dye set you will also need to find the strongest vice/clampset you can imagine. You may remember the vice at Milford Haven - that was about the right size with a scaffold bar to aid tightening.

If the thread goes on suspiciously easily then it is probably the wrong grade - for the gantry this is probably OK, but fatal fort he rudder pin :-)


Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2009, 11:54:44 AM »
i was aiming at the pimp finish so will investigate the tap and dye set. Thanks Daryl.

For the gantry pins I will try the kite tube with bolts inside.  both the connections from the gantry to the transom has 3cm of bearing on the transom 2cm bearing on the gantry and another 3cm bearing on the transom. it's going to be a tight finish so all the force will be in shear.

I realise that the extruded carbon kite tubing may not be quite so strong.  I suppose the optimum is winding lots of fibres in a + - 45 direction around a thinner rod or tube. One way to pass a quiet evening!

Back in the old days I / we used to use carbon arrow shafts made by Easton, Beman. There are a load of different spec tubes from composite carbon ally to spiral wound. But they get quite expensive quite quickly. Eventually we / I moved on to purchasing tubing especially made for kite shafts from companies like Pultrex http://www.pultrex.com and RBJ http://www.rbjplastics.com ( I always found RBJ to be quite brittle ) and liked Pultrex better, they may be worth a try. But I used to buy 100 meters at a time so it is unlikely. But it will give you some names and tech specs to look at before popping down to the local kite store.

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2009, 01:09:38 PM »
I used to work at an Archery shop where we used to sell arrows made by Easton and Beman ;-) The majority of the expensive arrows were Aluminium and Carbon Composite, this was because they could use a thinner section but still have enough stiffness and weight for them to perform. Some of the more expensive ones were tapered so they were fatter in the middle too. Arrows come in a ridiculous variety of shaft size and weight. Not sure if they are really the answer though as they aren't really designed to take significant load. There only real requirement is to be long, light and very straight!

Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2009, 01:35:39 PM »
significant load yes... but in column  ;D

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2009, 02:16:25 PM »
For the dye set you will also need to find the strongest vice/clampset you can imagine. You may remember the vice at Milford Haven - that was about the right size with a scaffold bar to aid tightening.

If the thread goes on suspiciously easily then it is probably the wrong grade - for the gantry this is probably OK, but fatal fort he rudder pin :-)


If it is a struggle to cut the thread you are cutting too much in one go, you use the set screw to control the cut depth and do it in several passes, 1/3 of a turn then back off, and cut again. You then use the finishing nut for the last cut keeping it all lubricated.

Not sure exactly what you are planning with your gantry hinge but carbon against carbon makes for rubbish bearings.



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