Author Topic: The Build of Elway 5 no.3  (Read 37397 times)

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Offline phil_kirk

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The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« on: October 17, 2008, 11:42:56 AM »
Well, we've started.

Andy P.  has started the hull and deck shell and we got sticky over last weekend.

I hope to make as many components as I can before we recieve the shells from Andy. this is principally to make best use of the space in the garage, make best use of Will's vaccum pump and speed up the total build time.

last weekend we made the flat panels for the bulkheads and spine.

While I'm working out the off sets for the foils in the later evenings I plan to make the mast stump, tiller and deck beams.

once the foils are made I can think about the case and rudder stock.

The pole is a precursor to the snout tube (i think it's easyier doing it that way).


The question is do I make the stump the same diameter and wall thickness as the standard mast section?

I'm asssuming 50mm ID and wall thickness of 2mm.  Any theories dimensions welcome.
I'm going to make the tiller next because i can and because i want to experiment with vaccum bagging a carbon tube.





Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2008, 11:58:45 AM »
Congratulations on starting your build,

for the diameter, I would say ideally the same as the mast or possibly slightly larger if it sticks up much. 50mm sounds a bit small I think 55mm is more standard.


Don't bother vaccuming a tube, you always get a pinch where the bag folds and that wil ruin the tube. Get the heat shrink tape, it will give you the best results on a tube. you could make do with parcel tape but if you are going to do a few tubes the proper stuff is well worth it.
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Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2008, 03:34:13 PM »
Thanks phil

I have tried shrink taping on our pole last year but it didn't go to well. The taper of the pole meant that the overlap of the tape reduced to nothing and to re-align the relatively stiff tape gave a crinkle which dug into the laminate. i also didn't get it tight enough which didn't help.  The crinkles left nasty dents in the finished laminate. 

My thinking was that any crease left by the thinner softer bag material will be less noticeable than the dents i got  from the shrink tape. especially since the laminate is covered by several other layers of consumables too.  these consumables don't appear to transfer creases in the bag to the laminate.

I'm still curious, so to satisfy my curiosity i'l try the tiller and put it down to experience if it goes wrong.

Offline Matt Harris

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2008, 05:12:19 PM »
Hi Phil, we got a good finish on the pole (before snapping it) using parcel tape we found we could alter the angle enough to ensure a 2/3 overlap all the way along.  We had one person sat down and another turning the pole slowly took ages but the pressure still forced out excess resin.
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Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2008, 05:22:13 PM »
Why not 50mm peel ply wrap and then bag it. Peel ply has enough flex to be controllable when wrapping. And would stop most of the issues with the bag creasing the cloth.

Edit: also if you use a final layer of sock in a second stage it will look mint.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 05:26:20 PM by daryl_wilkinson »

Offline ross_burkin

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2008, 11:57:33 AM »
Stump thickness.

There isn't much to an Elway so it's a safe bet that it's going to be under weight. Slightly overbuilding the mast stump is not going to do any harm (except maybe a few extra quid in materials) and you'll have no worries about wacking on loads of tention without breaking anything. If it goes on your first outing you'll be damn annoyed!
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Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2008, 02:10:15 PM »
Stump thickness.

There isn't much to an Elway so it's a safe bet that it's going to be under weight. Slightly overbuilding the mast stump is not going to do any harm

If you go into a build with that attitude it will end up over weight, everything you put onto the boat should be weighed, and worried about. There have been more heavy boats built in the last few years than light ones!

There is no harm in trying vac bag on the tube as an experiment, I think the key to avoiding creases in the tube is pullng the cloth tight as you lay it up. A paralel tube is much eisier than a tapered one to wrap and I think you can get a more even pressure on it than you would get with a vac bag.

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Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 07:04:45 PM »
Thanks phil and Ross,

I am mindfull that every few gramms here and there will add up so I don't want to add unneccesarily over engineer each item.  The short stump on the ELWAY is unlikely to fail from bending and is heavily supported so unlikely to buckle.  Like any component of a boat it's the shock loads that cause the problems and are hard to predict.  I am not aware of any stump that has gone but I share Ross's thoughts that it would be pretty annoying if it went on the first sail.

Thanks again for the advice and comments.

Offline ross_burkin

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2008, 09:32:48 PM »
Are you going Atum bom tube fest or Antidote style miny stump?
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Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 11:38:22 AM »
Mini Stump solution,

I still want the ability to get two boats in the garage both during and after build.

Offline JimC

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 11:47:53 AM »
Halo's longish stump was/is part sleeved - from the top to part way down the bulkheads. I couldn't think of a reason why it needed to be the same layup right down to the floor - if it was going to break it would be at or near deck level... I guess a  tapered stump would be the most elegant solution.  The sleeving was more to do with what bits of tube I had available.

Offline Will_Lee

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 02:16:12 PM »
Using heatshrink or parcel tape rather than bagging:

There seem sto be a lot of variation in the overlap between adjacent wraps of tape.

I definitely recommend overlapping the turns by loads - like only covering about 5mm or less of new cloth each wrap. It uses a lot of tape but seems to produce good results.


Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2008, 11:33:51 AM »
Jim,

I was thinking exactly the same.  If the load wasn't being shed into the adjacent bulkheads and spine the mast stump would punch through the bottom of the hull. The fact that the stump is connected menas that load can travel throughout the structure.

I chickened out of bagging the tiller and used shrink tape.  This was partly due to time to lay up before a tired Sarah got back from Weston (at which I failed, oops!) and secondly because I wanted to bring the partly cured tiller inside overnight to keep warm.

Will,
The peal ply and shrink tape combination worked really well. and I have a 200gramm tiller with a biax, uni, weave layup.

The interesting bit was getting the tiller off the plastic tube used as a mandrel.  I actually had to heat the thing up with a heat gun before the car could pull the tiller off the tube.  I'm wondering If heating the heat shrink is also softening the tube and therfore not doing very much. DOH!
I'm now thinking of sleaveing the plastic tube for the mast stump with a metal pole to provide stiffness and hopefully if a tight fit resistance against compression.  (I found a 53mm dia down pipe in B&Q to use as a mandrel). B&Q really do have all you need to make a boat if you look hard enough. 

Offline simon_jones

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2008, 05:48:13 PM »
Phil and Sarah in an Ellway 5 ! Bugger I really am jealous.

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: The Build of Elway 5 no.3
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 09:09:36 PM »
I am happy to report that lessons learned from the november 2007 pole building experience have been learnt and we are very pleased with the tiller and mast stump for the E 5 built this week.  The over length and untrimmed mast stump weighed in at 400 grams.  We did taper the layers a bit. 

We got very good consolidation which we think will make a big difference to weight and strength.

This was attributed to:
wetting out each cloth evenly but with less resin allowing each layer to be layed more compactly on to the mandrel.
after laying each cloth on the mandrel consolidating with hands (or roller)
spiral winding peal ply pulling it very tight after each turn
tightly winding heat shrink over the peal ply taping it in place and heating. 

The heat shrink still squeezed out some resin so we new the layup was fully wetted out.

The finnished piece has an even surface and has a nice ring to it when tapped.