Author Topic: The SK4  (Read 35704 times)

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Offline ross_burkin

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The SK4
« on: February 25, 2008, 01:49:53 PM »
Does anybody know anything about it? I've got the "tech specs" from a youtube video.
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Offline neal_gibson

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 06:24:55 PM »
yeah kev ellway designed and the gantry system is the same as atum boms.

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Offline Will_Lee

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 08:37:04 PM »
Start with Atum Bom, make the boat longer (about a foot), make the beam wider (1.8m to 2.8m (!)), make the sails bigger (15.5 sqm > about 17 sqm I think) , make the chines narrower (80cm I think). The SK4 has a 29er style decklet thingy instead of the tube-fest Atum has.

Very fast indeed across the windrange.

Will

Offline ross_burkin

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 08:46:37 PM »
Is it one design? I heard or read that it's an OD hull, but does is include foils? I guess the rig is open to development.

Is there any sign of it becoming a large class? Is there only one sailing at the moment?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 08:57:32 PM by ross_burkin »
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mathew_harris

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 10:33:01 AM »
i was under the impression it was a one off skiff without any initial desire to become a class / fleet?

Offline kevin_ellway

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2008, 06:48:35 PM »
Thanks for all the queries regarding the SK4. Here is the low down on the SK4, what it is, where its going.

Since I am on the Cherub forum, let me first say that the SK4 is not a boat intended to compete with the Cherub. It is for slightly heavier people who want (in particular) something more powered up with more upwind speed and generally more speed in less wind. It's a kind of mini 18 but, at 13 ft, is more like a Cherub than a yacht.


The answers below come from queries raised from youtube.

What are the boat's Vital statistics ?
===========================
Design values:
1) LWL 4m
2) Beam WL 850mm
3) Ideal sailing weights 130 - 150kg
4) All up sailing weight - 70kg
5) Sail area - upwind 17m^2, asymmetric 30m^2
6)Provisional PN 760

Actual values
All upsailing weight 84kg
Sail area 16m^2, asymmetric around 26m^2
Club handicap PN=780
 

Why another class?
==============
I had 15 years out of dinghy sailing and primarily sailed boards. When you get back in a dinghy, it's just slow - particularly upwind.

I wanted to plane all the way around the course. This means achieving a speed:length ratio of >3 upwind. The S:L ratio is speed in knots / root LWL (in feet). This is >11kts. (Lots of boats claim to plane upwind, but they rarely achieve speed: length ratios in excess of  2 – 2.2, which is semi planing (eg around 8-9kts in an RS800).

The average wind in the UK is 8-14kts. So you need a boat that will sail close to true wind speed upwind.

Next, I worked out the hydrodynamic drag angle required to achieve this speed. This is controlled by the ratio (side force/resistance). The top term is basically leverage and the bottom term is essentially weight. So you you need a light slippery boat with loads of leverage - you canny change the laws of physics Jim, as Scotty said.

I then looked at any existing monohull classes that could achieve the required ratio. A foiler Moth, yes, an 18 yes.
 A Cherub or a 12 foot skiff sailed by 2 heavy guys with a no 4 rig, yes gets a good ratio, but I’m not heavy, and we rarely sail in enough wind for a no. 4 rig.

So why a new class? – Quite simple: because there is nothing out there that comes even close to meeting my requirements.

Boats normally sail with the knuckle of the bows clipping the water. So are the bows out of the water upwind?
=======================================================================================
In the youtube clip <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http: we were making 13-14kts and occasionally hitting 15kts. If you go that fast, you are truly planing, so the bows should be out of the water. Only in semi planing mode (s:l <2.8 should the bows be in or just on the water).

Am I footing?
==========
No. Physics dictates that if you sail close to wind speed, best vmg will be at an angle of around 50 degrees. You will find this is true of all true high performance boats (eg foiler moth, Tornado cat). You are still sailing at an AWA of 23 degrees!

Is 75kg all up sailing weight heavy
======================
It could be lighter, I agree. But it is about the same as a 12 foot skiff with a no2 rig, and most UK cherubs. Few people seem to realise how heavy rigs and foils are – allow at least 20kg for a full carbon set up.

What's it like to sail
===============
An extra foot really does make a difference! The boat does feel longer than a Cherub, but the plus points are that it is nice to sail in light winds, is really smooth upwind in Solent chop and it doesn't nosedive. It sails a bit like an 18 footer.

How fast is it?
============
The boat is a bit quicker than an RS800 in winds <6kts and a lot faster in anything above. In the low to mid teens of wind it is quicker than a pro sailed 49er. Upwind it points higher and goes faster. We managed to clock 14kts downwind on the GPS in only 7-8kts of breeze.

Our club PN is 780 and we win races if the wind is >=8kts. This is with the boat that is at least 10kg overweight and has 1m^2 less sail than designed. You get around 30-40 PN points improvement in speed for each 10kg reduction in weight, so there's loads of potential.


Testers responses
===============
'Awesome, why not enter it for the women's skiff ISAF trials?' - top Olympic Laser radial sailor

'Makes the 49er feel like a bus in comparison' - RYA 49er squad member

'Way better boat than a 14' RYA 4923 squad sailer and 14 helm

'Incredible, it's just so smooth and fast... not for a relaxing sail, though!'- RS800 fleet sailor

Where next??
===========
The current boat is a prototype. I hope to produce a production boat this year.

The prototype has proven well mannered and relatively easy to sail. A bit more sail and some more leverage can thus be accommodated.

The production version will be both lighter and wider winged and with a 2 rig option set on the same mast and boom. The big rig is for heavies, small for lights. This will increase the competitive weight range from 130 to around 170kg. It will be a one design hull, but with a box rule rig (a bit like the B14). The idea is to produce a relatively low cost, truly high performance boat which is fun to just sail. Fitness, agility and 'feel' to dominate over lard and brute strength. The design will achieve a PN of around 700 in anything over 10kts of wind, thus making it the fastest skiff except an 18 footer. It will sail at or even faster than the wind upwind.

If anyone is interested, please contact me on SK4skiff@rya_online.net

PS I am looking forward to a go in Will's SK4 influenced E5 Cherub.












Offline smight at bbsc

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 07:03:05 PM »
Hi Kevin

Can i just say first off well done  ;D love the boat it looks great ! I'm not doubting your claims of just how fast the sk4 is but many the 14ers claim to be as fast as the 49ers and many of the 12ft skiffs claim similar feats although they are just claims that i have heard so i can't evidence them, i'm just saying that you are claiming a lot. Obviously i don't doubt your claims because you know a lot more about boat design than i do but have you got any evidence to back up your claims and the py you have given the boat? Have you raced many 14s or 49ers?

Cheers

George

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2008, 09:38:28 PM »
Links to SK4 video's on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9gvkmD2f8

It certainly looks quick, just from the spray and waves. I would defiantly like to see and have a go in it.

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mike_cooke

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2008, 10:12:43 PM »

 I would defiantly like to see and have a go in it.



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Offline kevin_ellway

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2008, 10:17:53 PM »
Hi George

Yes, I agree there are lots of claims. But you can sort the wheat from the chaff by looking at some basic numbers.

There are also sailors and sailors. A squad 49er sailor will be way faster than a club sailor etc

The 14 has a very high sail area to wetted surface and also high sail area to displ length ratio. They are very fast in light winds, probably a bit faster than a 9er. This is because the I14 is round and the 9er flat. The SK4 is not as fast as a 9er or 14 in light winds (<8kts). In very light winds (non planing) it is similar in pace to an 800. I have not directly sailed against any 14s in the SK4.

I have sailed the SK4 against 49ers (Dylan Fletcher and Alan Sign) (Tristam Jacques and crew). When we are twin wired, we were both faster and higher than the 9er. The 9er sailors are, however, a lot better than me and they are sailing relatively stable boats. So around a race course, they would win. You can lose miles by a duff tack, slow drop etc. That said, I have back worked our PN against top Musto Skiffs and 800s. In the 8-12 knot range, we are returning PNs of around 750 against sailors who are better than we are; so it isn't slow!

Both Tris and Dylan have dismissed the various claims of the 14 sailors (and from a maths standpoint) rightly so. When you are powered, the boats' speed is primarily controlled by the ratio of driving force to weight. Weight is the all up sailing weight. The driving force to weight ratio is roughly (Beam/2+1)*crew weight/0.5*mast height/sailing weight. This is just like power to weight for a bike or F1 car.

You get
18 footer : 35.2%
I14: 29.5% (It is lower if using super long foils)
49er: 30.6%
RS800:28.0%
Cherub:34%
SK4:38%

The SK4 is a clear winner having a p:w ratio nearly 30% bigger than a 14.. The Cherub is pretty good too which is why in flat water they can be pretty fast upwind.

The 14 doesn't do too well here because it is not wide enough for its rig height. In consequence, it has to be sailed high and slow rather than a bit lower and a lot faster. 49ers are a lot faster than 14s in any kind of breeze (unless you are sailing into a strong tide, sailing in shifty winds etc where high pointing pays dividends). The same applies downwind - the 14s go low and slow.

Another way of looking at performance is to look at the ratio of 1/PN:sqrt length. Assume a Cherub is 908 (that’s what we sailed off), a 14 is 800, a 800 is 822 etc.

You get
18 35.9
14 33.4
800 30.9
Cherub   31.6
SK4   36.8
49er   33.1

This takes out the influence of length. Again the SK4 fares well.

Tristam Jacques has sailed the SK4 and the 14 in the 07 nationals, the 49er and was the 29er world champion with Alan. Tris has stated that the SK4 is way quicker than a 14 and a lot nicer to sail. Dylan has also been in print stating that the SK4 is on the pace with the 49er. Tris and Dylan have both said that the 14s are slower than the 49er in any kind of a breeze. So when a 14 is on the pace with a 9er, it probably depends upon who’s sailing and it what conditions. E.g. against a strong tide, the I14 would have an advantage due to its stuffability.

Basically, if I wanted to beat 14s, 49ers in all conditions, I would have to make the boat longer (14ft  ish). It makes the boat quicker in displacement and less on and off. But length detracts from the responsiveness when sailing , so PN isn’t everything. If it was, you wouldn’t be sailing a Cherub would you??

Best regards

Kevin


mathew_harris

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 12:20:15 PM »
On a slightly less techincal note, where did the name come from, i'm guessing the 4 is cos of the length of the beast but where did the SK come from?

ghislain_devouthon

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 04:43:28 PM »
Super Kevin  :D :D :D :D ;)

Offline kevin_ellway

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 07:20:41 PM »
On a slightly less techincal note, where did the name come from, i'm guessing the 4 is cos of the length of the beast but where did the SK come from?

That's an easy one! SK iff and 4m.

I'm also thinking of an SK5 for my dotage. Crew weight around 180 - 210kg so can be sailed by two fat blokes or 3 squits!??

Offline kevin_ellway

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 07:22:39 PM »
Super Kevin  :D :D :D :D ;)

Thanks Ghislain - there are 3 vids on you-tube. Search SK4 skiff sailing

I hope to bring it to Carnac this year.

Kevin

Offline ross_burkin

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Re: The SK4
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 07:58:26 PM »
Do you think you will be building any more SK4's?

Kevin, I think you should design a 3 wire club racer. Basically a smaller 18 with a retractable pole.  :o
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