Author Topic: Handicaps for open handicap events  (Read 192 times)

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Offline scorpion_1925

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Handicaps for open handicap events
« on: December 03, 2018, 08:25:23 PM »
Following the Draycote Dash, where no one can deny that Green Bananas and King Tubby had a lot of fun, the issue of handicaps at open handicap events arose. it soon became quite clear that there was quite a big gulf between 05 rules boats and 97 rules boats, and as such a massive handicap penalty for the 97 rules boats to sail off the 05 rules handicap.

I have done a little digging and been in touch with both the Portsmouth Yardstick, who have so far failed to reply, and the Great lakes who have been most helpful. after a little bit of back and forth by email they have said it would be more than likely be possible for our handicap situation to be looked at. they have sited a couple of other classes where the situation exists for two different designs but both the same class exist.


International moths - if a foiler turns up then the lowriders sail off the foiling handicap, if no foilers they use the last lowrider handicap

national 18 - boats to the classic rules rather than the latest carry a letter C on their sails to signify to the race officer that they are a classic design.

international 14 - they didn't actually say how they distinguish between the two but did say that they do something similar for them.


so my question to you on the here, and maybe the committee (not sure if its something you would want to discuss or not), is this a route that we would want to go down? would it encourage more 97 rules boats to take part in open handicap events?

i will continue to pursue the portsmouth yardstick people and see if i can get any sort of a dialogue going with them. in the meantime, please let me know your thoughts so that i can feedback to the Great Lakes.

if anyone wants to read the full dialogue i can forward the emails to you.
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Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Handicaps for open handicap events
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 10:08:16 PM »
For the club sailing at Largs we recognise older handicaps for older 14's and lowrider moths, and we also had a different one for an older Fireball and Merlin that sailed here. When I was sailing Pocket Rocket in 97 rules mode we also used the handicap from the 2005 when the rules changed. There is a list here:http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/tech/handicaps

Once we started doing the online handicap returns at Largs it was easy to calculate the handicap that we were sailing Pocket Rocket it was getting quicker each year and got down to 910 at the end of 2017. That was with 97 rules upwind and a 19sqm kite and T-foil. PR is also a hull built to the 97 hull rule rather than converted and there is quite a speed benefit from that, it is also often windy here which helps.

Jim C who sometimes posts on here has alot of knowledge about handicaps and would be a good person to contact.
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Offline scorpion_1925

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Re: Handicaps for open handicap events
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 11:29:59 PM »
At club level it isn't such an issue, most clubs are happy to be guided by what's on the website. The problem occurs at big open handicap events, like the sail juice events. This is what prompted the enquiry to find out what would be necessary to get something officially recognised for these type of events.
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Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Handicaps for open handicap events
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 09:43:32 PM »
I would be suprised if you got anything from the RYA, they won't be able to pull results out for 97 rules boats as there is a mix of modified and unmodified boats through the sailnumber range.

Sailjuce seem to be open to doing their own handicaps, and have been talking of dynamic handicaping. S0 potentally giving them some defining charitoristics and seed data may be sufficient. If your club submits data to the PY website you can get a pdf showing the handicap range of competing boats in a class. Potentially if you got a few of those from different 97 rules boats that have been club racing you might be able to start the conversation.
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Offline scorpion_1925

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Re: Handicaps for open handicap events
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2019, 07:51:50 PM »
Following the Grafham grand prix, where we had a lot of fun blasting around, I was able to get hold of the results so that I could rework them for py's of 975 and 1000 just to see what effect this would have had on our results. and whilst the individual race results were only a small improvement this would have lifted out overall result from last to finish all the race to near the middle of the fleet. I have attached the calculations for those that are interested.
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Offline jonny_harris

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Re: Handicaps for open handicap events
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 05:01:30 PM »
Would have been interesting to see what our actual results should have looked like if they didn’t change our py after racing

Offline scorpion_1925

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Re: Handicaps for open handicap events
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 07:01:34 PM »
After a little arithmatic your results would have been 7, 3, 1 which would have placed you second overall
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