Author Topic: Moth Wing Sails  (Read 33314 times)

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douglas_hassell

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Moth Wing Sails
« on: January 03, 2011, 04:26:01 AM »
Just reading about the World's about to start in Australia.

At least one of the sailors is taking a wing sail and will look to get it measured.

Watch this space :o

Offline john_hamilton

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 12:33:43 PM »
moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/Rules_Docs.jsp#PresNoteOnWings2010

Well at least someone has sense, 30:6 vote to allow wingsails at the worlds, I wanna see how fast moths can really go, is this the next big development, or not going to make that big a difference? Opinions? Will Bora do a horizon job with his wing?
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail

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Offline JimC

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2011, 11:44:05 AM »
Much as I admire the Cs, think about building wing rigs and transporting them to Open meetings... Queenie's balsa wood capped wing mast is bad enough on the inconvenience front.

Its also worth noting that if the Moths hadn't banned sailboard rigs back in the 70s the class would almost certainly have turned into a species of sailboard and the foilers would never have come about.

Offline Ben Howett

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2011, 06:31:06 PM »
It will be tough to draw any real conclusions from the results of one regatta - Regardless of whether or not the wing will eventualy prove dominant (should it be allowed after the AGM) we are looking at an almost first gen wing design with sailors who have had a matter of months to learn to use it vs the very highly developed soft rig that the good guys know very well. It looks like Bora will be sticking to his conventional rig, probibly for those reasons.

A lot has been made of the dominance of the wing in the last AC but the reality is that that was a totaly different scenario and I expect there was more to be gained through the reduction in loading and increase in control over a soft rig than there was through purely aerodynamic considerations.  Mainsheet loading for example went from  around 24 tonnes to around 4 tonnes which is a big deal. Not such a big deal at our scale.

When Ben Hall turned up to the As with his wing a while back he finished within a place of his result from the previous year. He was faster in some conditions and slower in others.

My expectation is that the moth wing will do much as the A wing before it and wont make much of a splash. The difference here might be that should development be allowed to continue there is a far greater base of people who may take the idea and run. Next year could be fun...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 06:33:54 PM by Ben Howett »

douglas_hassell

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 09:26:15 AM »
The worlds have started, link is    http://www.mothworlds.org/belmont/  at least one boat racing with a wing and some cool photos on the site.

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 09:00:56 PM »
I may be a bit cynical but I can't help thinking that these wings are better for the CV's of some of the pro sailors, with AC ambitions than they are for the Moth Class.

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Offline phil_kirk

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 01:25:45 PM »
Well as suggested the wing didn't make a big splash except when it did and broke.  I wonder if the conditions were favouring experience at sailing the boats rather than technology.  One boat recorded a speed of 31.1 knots!

I notice that Pete Barton was improving in the silver fleet with a string of 4ths at the end. Given another few weeks I'm sure he would be working his way up the gold fleet.


Offline JimC

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 08:35:51 AM »
I wonder if the conditions were favouring experience at sailing the boats rather than technology.  
They always do...

Something that Alex Vallings of C-Tech pointed out to me...

Supposing that you come up with innovation X that is potentially 10% faster than what we have now.
Now lets say that what we have now is developed to 90% of its potential.
And that innovation X in its first iteration is developed to 75% of its potential, which would be pretty good.

OK, so with the current setup you can sail say 90yards of a potential 100 in a given time.
With innovation X you sail 75% of a potential 110yards in that time, which is 82.5 yards.
Therefore innovation X is slow...

Then lets say that Innovation X comes from Joe Mid fleet like me. At the best of times I'll be around 10% behind Jane Champion,
so if I have innovation X I'll sail around 75 yards while Jane Champion is sailing 90, so its obviously really slow...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 01:56:05 PM by JimC »

Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 05:46:25 PM »
I wonder if the conditions were favouring experience at sailing the boats rather than technology.  
They always do...

Something that Alex Vallings of C-Tech pointed out to me...

Supposing that you come up with innovation X that is potentially 10% faster than what we have now.
Now lets say that what we have now is developed to 90% of its potential.
And that innovation X in its first iteration is developed to 75% of its potential, which would be pretty good.

OK, so with the current setup you can sail say 90yards of a potential 100 in a given time.
With innovation X you sail 75% of a potential 110yards in that time, which is 82.5 yards.
Therefore innovation X is slow...

Then lets say that Innovation X comes from Joe Mid fleet like me. At the best of times I'll be around 10% behind Jane Champion,
so if I have innovation X I'll sail around 75 yards while Jane Champion is sailing 90, so its obviously really slow...

which is quite a negative way of looking at things when you consider 'innovation X' being Hydrofoils, I cant see any lowriders in the chocolates. Especially from a development sailor. It is the first steps on the ladder for a new innovation that will require a lot more development time than even foils.

Offline Will_Lee

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2011, 10:43:11 AM »
Foils came along in ~1998, but did not win anything until 2004.

(In fact they came along long long before that when Andy P pioneered them)

Foils are an excellent example of what Jim is talking about.

Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »
yep, you are quite right Will, innovations takes along time to get right.

I'm sure Jim's quote represents a very real life view of an innovation in development. And is a great cautionary tail to anyone expecting to leapfrog places by new innovation alone. But it is still, never the less a very negative view of development, one that would suggest the author ( along with other posters on this thread ) would enjoy sailing one design more than development classes.

If you take that view, the cost / benefit reward to an innovation ( reward being measured in success ) far exceeds the pay back, and would logically dictate that the class stagnates. Something that is not within the spirit of moth class.

Offline JimC

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2011, 01:34:13 PM »
one that would suggest the author ( along with other posters on this thread ) would enjoy sailing one design more than development classes.

I think you are stretching something to say that Alex Vallings and I should be sailing one designs.

Its a question of being realistic and thinking through your long term goals. There's rarely any gain without pain, and of course it is no fun if its easy... And if you are going to attempt anything really radical you need to have a shed load of patience and committment. Iteration one may be unlikely to work, but you still need to get through it to reach iteration two. If you give up after iteration one you are unlikley to achieve very much.

For instance I still believe that there's unfinished business with over rotating wing masts, and there's performance to be gained there. However, as a result of work various parties have done with CFD analysis of pole mast performance I now suspect that the performance to be gained is much less than was believed in the days of when people agonised about separation bubbles behind the mast, and I also believe that gust response and dynamic behaviour is far more important than I thought it was (in so far as I knew anything at all) back in the 70s and 80s. I also have to consider my own limited abilities, budget and facilities - and advancing age. So on the one hand it would be very interesting to play with wing masts shaped with something like a self skinning urethane foam leading edge on the Canoe, but on the other hand I don't want to write off two or three of my remaining sailing seasons and a lot of cash I don't have building 4 or 5 development masts in order to go even slower then I do now. And once I've got something that I am convinced is fast I still need to persuade someone with front of fleet talents to take it up, because without that sailing talent a development will never look as good as it really is. Most successful innovations in dinghies come from people who are also front of fleet sailors: look at Cherub history and the great designers the class has thrown up: Spencer, Bethwaite, Murray, Farr, Bowler are I guess the top names. Of those only Spence was not a world class sailor, and not precious few are given the level of vision he had to utterly break the mould and set the entire world sailing scene on a new path.  So wingmasts are for someone younger and maybe richer than me I think.

But that doesn't mean I've given up ideas. There are a number of features of the rig I have on IC 257 that are dramatically different from the majority of the fleet. In particular I'm exploring some ideas I have for having significant variations in stiffness below the hounds rather than a simple tube. What I am aiming to achieve is a rig that has the vast majority of gust response characteristics of a two spreader check and caps rig without all the complication and windage of all the extra wires. Maybe its working, maybe its not, but although the potential gains to be made are much less than a wing rig, so are the potential losses, and so my current sailing is less compromised. And If I decide it hasn't worked I can just angle grind the extra carbon off and put the stick back to a parallel tube... Its a lower gain but lower risk experiment, which is what suits me at the moment, but its still more innovatve than anything 99% of the world's sailors are getting up to.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 02:07:39 PM by JimC »

Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 03:37:10 PM »
one that would suggest the author ( along with other posters on this thread ) would enjoy sailing one design more than development classes.

I think you are stretching something to say that Alex Vallings and I should be sailing one designs.

I might be stretching it, but you said it, and i have to draw conclusions from what you post. And written in the way it was, it gave me that impression. I'm glad you still have ideas firing around on your own projects, I would just be happier if people applied a more positive view of development from within development classes. To many times in development classes there are far too many people saying no you can't, when what you need is, let's try it and see.

interestingly you suggest that most innovation comes from world class sailors, and then extol Spencer as a true original thinker, someone able to think out side the box, someone who changed the direction of sailing, whilst not being a world class sailor. Personally I see a strong connection between that fact and his ability to think outside of the then current sailing design dogma. In short I prefer the mantra... "give ideas a chance".




Offline dave_ching

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 07:00:28 AM »
Inovation comes in many forms.
Jim was pointing out some of the risks of development.
It is a very exciting thought and personally I think if there is someonre out there out there that wants to build the new super x design that will transform sailing good luck to them. We will I would imagine give them all the support they want.
However to incourage people to do that with there eyes closed would be good way of warding of the next generation of Cherubers.
There are many ways of developing. For myself I am about to begin developing skills in sailmaking. Hopefully with other peoples help this will bring another part of the boat trade into the home build relm.
This will make us very close to making a well made, reliable, competative and ofcourse cheep boat anyone could build with help.
For me one of the cool things about Cherubs is being first across the line is only one and often not the most important achievment at any nationals.
Personally I can think of a few acheivments at last years nationals that impressed me as much as the winner last year.
This is not taking anything away from Chris.

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Moth Wing Sails
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 10:40:58 AM »
In short I prefer the mantra... "give ideas a chance".

It is strange that you say this as when I read Jim's post about percentages that was what I thaught he was saying. i.e. do not write wings off just from the results of a first regatta, give them a chance to show all their potential.

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