Author Topic: Thunderbird 4  (Read 49191 times)

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Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 12:46:36 PM »


i think we do, well me anyway, i just dont quite understand how to get the section diagrams,etc. people give me the NACA sections but i have no clue where to find them


http://www.pdas.com/profiles.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoil

Google is your friend you basically you either make a spreadsheet, scale the points and plot onto square paper or;
put into a cad programme, draw to scale and print out.

If you are routing contours you need to make an allowance for the thickness of the laminate, and you still need to make a template for the final shape to check things after the laminate.
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roland_trim

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2010, 01:20:43 PM »
On one of the previous threads there are some Rhino files. Ifyou can't find them send me a PM with an emial address adn I should be able to dig out some examples....

Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 04:05:21 PM »
After some great advice from Phill K, I have settled on one of Martin Hemples (model planes) sections for t - foil lifting part. Low drag and operates at Similar Reynolds numbers to model planes so makes sense (apparently - I havent done the maths). It operates at a low angle of attack so less of a worry of stalling. Then a NACA for the center board and a chunky NACA for the steering bit of the rudder. Interestingly no one has mentioned aspect ratio. I assume you have the same drag/stall angle compromise there as well?

John, I wouldnt get too held up on the fluid mechanics. I studied it at degree level for two years and still dont have a clue, its not easy to get your head around. Im just copying what the clever people do on the issue of foils. But if you have a head for physics then good luck, you can explain it to me!  
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 06:06:44 PM by rs405 »

Offline john_hamilton

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2010, 04:47:27 PM »
rob, fluid ddynamics is what i want to do at uni so i thought id get started soonish :)
on a more confused note, martin hemples seems to be blocked at school on the internet so ill do some more in the weekend. phil k and kevin ellways advice seem to match up quite well so ill go with a NACA 10% rudder, NACA 03010 centreboard and the Martin Hemples 50 plan with a bit of asymetry for the t bit of the foil.

right... aspect ratio, what is goodd for an E5 as i imagine it spends more time at higher speed than cheese so the board could be different in aspect ratio for less drag with a slight comprimise on lower speed stalling???

sorry for asking so many questions... first lot of carbon ordering soon!!!!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail

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mike_cooke

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2010, 08:01:01 PM »
If you are in Southampton, talk to Tim at Marineware for foam. Corecell A500 for general stuff and they have a HD version too but can't remember the code...


Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2010, 07:29:49 PM »
this bit of software may help...

http://www.dreesecode.com/index.html

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2010, 01:02:57 PM »
Sounds like you have a grasp of the design side for foils.

Aspect ratio is a consideration but if you talk to Kevin Elway he will explain that the downwash angle also affects the efficiency.

The rudder is posibly the greatest compromise of design because it has to work at all speeds and you want the most stearage at the lowest speed i.e. manoeuvring for the start.  A  T- foil gives you the benifit of an end plate effect which increases the effective aspect ratio.  The cords of current t foils is about 120-150mm so the rudder blade will need to be a similar cord or greater.

I oppted for a rudder blade cord of 230mm to aid the low speed stearage issue but coupled this with a 9% low drag section to offset some of the drag of the larger surface area.
 Slippery's rudder is 18cm cord at the top and tapers down to 15cm at the bottom but has no sculling effect and does stall out on poorly balanced bear aways. The optimum maybe somewhere in between the two.

Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2010, 11:57:35 AM »
That is very interesting, thankyou. What is downwash angle?

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2010, 12:33:44 PM »
I can't remember the exact explanation of downwash angle but i think it is associated with the flow round the tip of the foil and the drag associated with it is controlled by the planform of the foil.  The dagger boards/centreboards on Antidote and E-numbers and I think the other Elway 5's are shaped to minimise down wash.  As I suggested before Kevin may be able to explain the theory.

Alternatively ask an aironautical engineer and keep asking why?

Offline john_hamilton

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2010, 12:55:21 PM »
is it simlar to tip vortexes on the sails, i.e. why the elliptical shape is so effective as it doesnt allow vortxes to take hold and so lose lift?

edit: like kevin designed will's centreboard as elliptical to allow aspect ratio without a too low CLR for less heeling
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Offline kevin_ellway

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2010, 02:15:13 PM »
John

Aero/hydro
========
There are 2 forms of drag; a) profile b) induced. They are practically independent of each other.
The foil shape you use affects the profile drag. Profile drag is caused by viscous effects. You need to choose the shape based on the lift coeff and the Reynold's no. Typically CL~0.3 for a centreboard and Re 400k. You can use 2D drag predictions to look at this. eg JavaFoil
If you use a NACA00 section for the rudder, sharpen the leading edge where it goes through the water surface - it will ventilate otherwise. There are lower drag foils (as already advised) which may suit you better.

The induced drag is a 3D phenomena and is the drag that is produced directly a function of lift.

CL=Ao x AR/(AR+2) x aoa where AR=e*span^2/area, Ao is the 2D lift slope of the foil (0.11 CL/deg for most foils) and aoa is the angle of attack and e is the Oswald efficiency factor

The induced drag is given by Cdi=CL^2/(e x pi x AR) .

So you can see that the lift for a given aoa increases as AR increases and as e increases. Similarly the induced drag decreases as a function of AR and e.

So what effects Oswald efficiency?
e is a function of the end terminations of the foils and also what is called the downwash distribution.

When you stick a foil in a fluid and give is an angle of attack of angle A, the flow is angle is increased ahead of the foil by an angle ai and decreased behind the foil by an angle 2*ai. Ai is called the induced angle of attack or upwash and 2*ai is the downwash angle. Upwash from a mainsail makes the wind freer for the the jib. Downwash from the jib makes the wind head for the main. This is why the jib is sheeted at say 10 deg and  the main at 0 deg. It is also why when you get a boat ahead and to leeward of you,  you fall down. Your boat frees the wind for him, and his boat makes the wind head for you.

Anyway, ai is given by the local section lift CLs/2*pi - A.

A German scientist called Munk worked out that the induced drag was at a minimum when the downwash angle along the foil was uniform. So if CLs is constant along the span, so is ai, and thus so is the downwash angle.

For an untwisted symmetrical foil like a centreboard or rudder, it turns out that to get a uniform ai and the CLs, the planform needs to be an ellipse. If it is anything other than this, eg a triangle, the lift will not be constant along the span - in fact it would theoretically go to infinity at the pointy tip. In consequence ai is not constant and so the induced drag won't be at a minimim.

So, for a completely elliptical foil (like a spitfire wing) e = 1.

Now, if you use 1/2 an ellipse and put it under a boat, the hull forms an end plate and e=2.

But this is not the whole story...
The centre of resistance of a 1/3 ellipse is at a depth of about 42% of the span. But for a triangular tapered foil it is at 33% of the span. For the same AR, the elliptical board will give less induced drag, but more heeling moment. When you're fully powered, what you want is a board shape that gives the best ratio of induced drag to heeling moment. In essense, you can have a longer (and thus higher AR foil) if it is triangular. So there must be some optimum.

Another scientist called Jones was interested in this for gliders - higher AR, less drag, flatter glide slope. But the bending loads at the centre span get get really big. So he wanted to get the minimum drag for a given bending load - just as we want min drag for a given heeling moment. He found that this was achieved the the downwash distribution is tapered linearly. For a centreboard, this is a board shape which is much more tapered than an ellipse.

To cut a long story, you can increase the span by about 15% compared with an elliptical foil and keep the centre of resistance in the same place. If the board shape is such that the downwash tapers linearly to zero at the tip, the induced drag is also some 15% lower than the ellipse. This is what was designed for Will.

There are some detractors. On a centreboard, we can't twist the tip. This means that section lifts at the tip is higher than the root - we have a 'tip staller'. This adds some drag, but should mean the board stalls progressively along its length rather than all at once. You'll have to consult Will to see it it works!

Hope this helps. Try looking at www.tspeer.com and www.onemetre.net and www.desktopaero.com

Kevin


Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2010, 08:12:52 PM »
Wow Kevin you really do know your stuff. I haven't done a proper analysis of the equations yet as I have an interview tomorrow, but I will try and have a proper look when I get back. 

Offline Neil C.

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2010, 11:31:48 PM »
That is very interesting, thankyou. What is downwash angle?

Wow! And there was me thinking it was something to do with Maverick getting too close to Iceman and heading out to sea in a flat spin.  :-[

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 09:15:30 AM »
Neil, you're mistaken my friend, that was backwash from Icemans thrusters!

Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Thunderbird 4
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2010, 01:05:18 PM »
We will be doing things a bit differently on the t-foil front. We will use the lift from the t-foil to lift part of the blade out of the water, through the top of the stock once moving, and when we stop the blade will slot back down with a big clunk thanks to lots of bungee. This should give us a large rudder when we need it and a small rudder when we dont.

Trailer is coming on nicely, photos to follow.

I thought for a first boat I would actually like to buy a shell, as it is several less things to go wrong so I have got my hands on Hardly Sluggish. Shell being delivered over easter hopefully. I know the Slug is an old design but it should hopefully still be quicker than an E6 in the top wind ranges in flat water. Not that hull shape matters a great deal really.

At last things have go off the ground.