Author Topic: Vac bagging on a budget.  (Read 22898 times)

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Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Vac bagging on a budget.
« on: February 16, 2009, 06:06:19 PM »
My friend is currently building a carbon fiber guitar of all things and he is using a modified tire compressor as a vacuum pump. Has anyone tried this? It seems to pull a good vacuum.

joe_moore

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 10:02:26 AM »
I've heard they can be used but are better suited to small jobs. Fridge pumps are supposed to be a bit more man for the job afaik.

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 12:08:57 PM »
That looks like quite good pressure, or lack of it

Like Joe said it may struggle with the volume needed on larger bags but for small jobs it looks like quite a good idea, just watch the temperature you may need to rig a cooling fan.
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joe_moore

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 08:57:02 PM »
Right, here's a practical and theoretical update.

Just vac-bagged a t-foil on a budget, with great success.

Shopping list:
- Fridge compressor (this one was borrowed from will, they easily obtainable from broken fridges as it's usually the starter relay that packs up rather than the compressor itself)
- Polythene dust sheet
- Plastic-based loft insulation for breather (its high density polyethylene i believe, not the fibreglass stuff though i guess that would work too)
- 5mm poly tubing (to extend the pipe on the pump)
- peel ply

The method:
- cut an oversize bit of dust sheet and lay it out flat. too big is better than too small
- cut a piece of breather just larger than your layup and lay it on top of the polysheet
- cut a piece of peel ply bigger than your breather, but smaller than your polysheet
- do your layup on a separate bench making sure all your layers are pulled as tight as possible
- lay it on the peel ply and fold the peel ply over smoothing it down around the front edges and making it tidy as possible
- place the sucky bit of polytube in on top of the peel ply but not on the laminate (it might dent it, i don't know)
- fold the breather over, followed by the polysheet, be patient if you have a good pump within a minute it'll seal itself and flatten down nicely. taping and folding is not necessary

Thoughts:
- we used 1" thick breather which was quite squishy, it worked well but could maybe have been even thicker
- even a 2:3 resin to cloth ratio the vac pulled a lot of epoxy out of the mix so you really can go very dry and get good results
- after speaking to a friend who is a refridgeration engineer he advises that a domestic fridge compressor will possibly burn out fairly quickly as it relies on a lubricant in the refrigerant gas it usually pumps to oil it
- be meticulous in preparing your mold/core - even tiny imperfections will show through with a vac bagged laminate!

Pictures to come later...

A note on the core:
As a bit of a trial and exercise in laziness more than anything I decided to use a balsa core and bought some 3/8" leading edge, block, and trailing edge from a local model shop; stuck the three bits together and gave it a quick fair. As a result I decided to use a fair amount of laminate to strengthen the crushable core. This could be avoided by gluing in carbon stringers, but again i was feeling lazy.

I ended up with a core just over 90cm long, 12.5cm chord in the middle tapering to 9.5cm at the edges, and around 1cm thick. The plain balsa core weighed in at 92 grams.

Laminate was two layers of 200g glass weave all round, with 300g carbon uni-d sandwiched between. On the top there was one 3/4 length layer and one full length layer. On the bottom there was one 1/2 length layer, one 3/4 length layer and one full length layer.

It's ended up at 354g roughly trimmed. Still needs a little fairing and attaching to the bottom of the rudder blade..

Time will tell if it's strong enough..
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:59:59 PM by Joe Moore »

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2009, 04:47:31 AM »
Hi Joe,

That sounds pretty good, did you use any tacky tape to seal the bag?
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joe_moore

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2009, 09:07:43 AM »
no tape is needed as the polysheet is flexible enough to seal under the pressure of a vacuum. make sure you have a good sized overlap of 6" or so to help get it started, but once it's going it doesnt need much overlap at all.

hats off to roland for the idea of the tapeless vac bag.

edit: forgot to say, attached it to the bottom of the blade last night using ud carbon, a nice big fillet of microfibre bog and a layer of 200g glass weave to finish. the whole thing weighs in at 1480g, but i think it needs a trim down and a final layer of glass on the rudder blade which is a foam/carbon job originally made by tim noyce. really, glass gets used so much as i've got silly lots of it, not much carbon, and even less spare money with sailing club fees looming!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 09:18:18 AM by Joe Moore »

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 01:13:29 PM »
I wondered what you were doing with that blade Joe. I'm glad to hear it is going to see the water finally. Not the nicest of lamination work as we did it in the height of summer in a warm garage so it was a bit of a nightmare to work with. Bit of filler and a nice top layer of weave and it should be good to go though!  :)

Would be nice to see some pictures of it once you've done it though Joe and we could maybe make a little feature on the main site about it. The more step by step guides the better as it shows to website viewers that anyone can have a go and you don't necesarily need all the expensive kit.

Offline Stuberry

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 01:28:12 PM »
Vac Pump - Free
Plug - 89p
Polythene Dust sheets - £2.79
Loft insulation - £4.99
Poly tube - 99p

Showing your mate how to vac bag for less than a tenner without going anywhere near a chandler - Priceless

joe_moore

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 01:36:26 PM »
Sure thing, Tim. I've got to build a new stock for it as well so you'll get two writeups for the price of one.  ;D

Top laminate could go on tonight, assuming the first fairing goes well.

Offline Stuberry

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 03:19:00 PM »
- we used 1" thick breather which was quite squishy, it worked well but could maybe have been even thicker

In hindsight I think we used exactly the right amount of breather. It squashed nice and tight, yet still allowed the vacuum to circulate.

joe_moore

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 03:28:11 PM »
In hindsight I think we used exactly the right amount of breather. It squashed nice and tight, yet still allowed the vacuum to circulate.

It was completely saturated with epoxy in places. Whether this is a good thing or not, I don't know.

What I do know is vac bagging is awesome for getting good consolidation and it's going to get used wherever possible from now on.

Offline Stuberry

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 04:11:25 PM »
I think the lesson we need to take there is to laminate using less epoxy!

But you're right, once you've had vac you never go back!

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2009, 06:06:45 AM »
Can you put up some pictues and a make for the breather cloth?

On a buget I guess you do not have a vac guage I wonder if it is possible to look at the difference between your tapeless seal and one using tacky tape.

I know that with tacky tape it looks like you have got a good seal and are pulling a good vac, then you press around the rest of the edge, find that last small leak and suddenly the note on the pump changes and you can see the difference.



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joe_moore

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Re: Vac bagging on a budget.
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2009, 09:21:02 AM »
Will try and get some photos up later for you Phil. All I can say without a gauge is that the breather was compressed down so everything was rock solid.

I think the key to using the tapeless bag is to use very lightweight plastic so it has no inherent desire not to seal tightly, and a little static anyway, almost like the cling film effect.

The breather cloth we used was the "ecohome" plastic loft insulation (looks like cotton wool) on offer in homebase at the moment. A massive roll of the stuff for £4.99. It comes in "75mm" thick layers which are actually five 15mm layers pressed into one, which split apart nicely so you can make a breather layer of your choice in multiples 15mm. I expect the traditional glass "rockwool" would work as well, but this is much cleaner and there are less splinters involved.