Author Topic: Pintles  (Read 4225 times)

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Offline robin_davies

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Pintles
« on: October 16, 2022, 08:28:48 AM »
Please could someone advise on replacing a missing rudder pintle? I’ve taken on a Daemon with rotating stock and have never seen what it had for a pintle. I can source steel rod but can’t see how to retain it in place!
I found an old thread on this topic of pintles that talks about tapping a thread for a nut. I don’t have the skills/tools for that!
https://www.uk-cherub.org/forum/index.php?topic=417.msg5626#msg5626

What do you recommend, what are my options?

Thanks,
Robin & Holly

Offline MonacoCherub

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2022, 03:07:20 PM »
8mm stainless bar

Most of mine are held in place with a washer and some tape. Crap when little hands remove the tatty bits of tape and call it helping

Next best (and second quickest).  Grind a flat sspot, then drill a hole for a ring

Others use balls of epoxy and yes, thread the  end is fairly neat


Generally the pin has no axial requirements.

That stock has had many many alterations to that meachism - for some reason i have memory of making the stoxl fixed and the adjustment being in the gantry?

Offline robin_davies

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2022, 05:32:16 PM »
Thank you! The gantry is now solid - I’m sure you are right about the history of it as there are signs of previous works.

Offline MonacoCherub

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2022, 05:24:05 PM »
Cool - so no rotating plate inside a slot ?

Offline robin_davies

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2022, 09:00:59 AM »
Here are images of the gantry and stock.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2022, 09:12:14 AM by robin_davies »

Offline MonacoCherub

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2022, 07:41:58 AM »
The two blocks on the back of the boat are for the t-foil control. I think the go out to cleats near the deck/rack connection.

The rope connects from these blocks to 2 more blocks that are on pin. The rope thengoes to the tiller and sets the position (via ab 8:1 or 16L1 cascade). Those photos spark a memory of all the ropes being below the tiller. The slider inside just becomes the thing to keep it all in line.


I think there were 3 blocks on the pin, 2 for the control line and the other for a cascade. The key is that the rope pulls the tiller so the pin tries to move forward. A "Lots" to 1 ratio here helps find a setting - although that foil has a wide sweet spot

That foil always tries to pull to negativem so a bungee also acts as a pull in that direciton.

If the blocks are 8mm Allens, they can actually sit on the pin, meaning the system does not put more foil when you steer

Offline robin_davies

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2022, 07:36:38 PM »
That’s helpful, thank you. I’ve made a pin now so I can have a play with the mechanism using your notes.
 

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2023, 08:17:21 AM »
Guys, I've not been on here for ages but as ex Badgers Owner I have a lot of the answers to your questions.

The pin was just an 8mm piece of stainless and it was drilled with a washer and a split ring at each end. The stock was essentially fixed and stayed on the boat and rarely taken off.

The gantry has always been fixed, and originally the mechanism was a worm gear / twist grip inside the stock itself. It was a very neat system designed by Richard Taylor. It worked ok, but it was quite time consuming to wind on and off as to make the ratio sufficient to be able to overcome the load, it meant that the pitch was such that it took a lot of twisting to go from one end of the range to the other. This stayed on the boat until we capsized once and came up and the whole thing had sunk to the bottom of the ocean (or was it Lake Bala, I lose track). After that, i looked at what could be done to make things 'easier'. I owned the boat, but was generally the crew at that stage and the feedback I got mostly was that the t-foil was tricky to operate. I went for a rope system so that the stock just hinged and there was a bungee to lift it into the raised position. The rope system was lead out to the racks and then it was a simple pull the rope to pull the foil on, and let it off to release. This was quicker and simpler... and also meant I could adjust it as the crew! Also, when s**t got real you could just uncleat it and you'd be back to a more neutral handling boat.

I've seen your other posts regarding the foils too... That t-foil was made in a female mould with gelcoat and carbon laid up from the inside. I broke so many of these foils over the years as we experimented with the layup and expanding foam but this one survived and we just kept using it. To me, it looks like the gelcoat has just flaked off. I would just use some filler and paint it. It's not structural at all.

The daggerboard was also made by me at a 'Sticky Weekend' we used it for a number of years and it was much improved over the original daggerboard that came with the boat. (these were also female moulded and we also broke countless of these) The board DID fit the hole in the boat, but obviously as it was made freehand from a cedar blank the fit compared to the case was never perfect. It relied a lot on having velcro in the back end of the case to ensure the board stayed far enough forward in the slot to not jam. There was a bit of a technique involved for it to work, but it was never really a problem. It looks to me as if since it left my ownership people have just attacked the foil to get it to fit, which essentially, was never going to work. In hindsight, I should have cut the case out and fitted a new one with that board when it was new... but I was time and money poor and I never bothered!

Did the boat not come with any covers? My wife Kate made some lovely covers for that boat and it looked incredible! Shame.

Feel free to ping any more questions. The boat had a bit of a chequered history as it was built as a budget production boat, but it was obviously a prototype which served its purpose very well... mostly destruction testing. Lots of bits fell off and then were reattached with adequate carbon. Lots of fun though and quick at times. I am sure that if I'd been 20kg lighter then it would have been even faster! ;-)

Offline robin_davies

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2023, 08:27:13 AM »
Hi Tim, thank so much for sharing all this. I’ve really enjoyed working on her and look forward to seeing her dancing across the waves again.
The top cover is still serviceable with a few tears I can try to patch. Fabisil may return the water proofing - fingers crossed. It’s a special thing for sure.

Couple of things I’ve been dying to ask you:

•I couldn’t see from what I recovered was the kite halyard uptake. The stern block is fixed and I’m not sure whether the slack should bungee forward or up the mast.

•The pole seems to retract ok until it hits the metal support under the foredeck. Any tips on that or did you leave it sticking out a bit upwind?

•Were there ever supports under the rear racks where it meets the gunwale?

•T-Foil range for on/off. There were two white lines on the stock. Are these safe parameters for on/off or on/really on ? I’m hoping that releasing the control line will release it all the way off (a little help from the bungee) and that this a good position without requiring calibration.

• Top tips for sailing her in big waves?

• Finally can you suggest good water or sailing clubs with skiffs near Exeter. My daughter will be Badger’s helm and will be there for a few years and I think you do/did live in the south west?

Thank you again for all the advice. I hope we meet one day.

Cheers
Robin

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2023, 08:50:22 AM »
Hi Robin,

I'll try and reply as best as I can as my memory is a little grainy!

- The halyard didn't have a slack take up when we had it I don't think. I know that some people loved to bungee the hell out of everything but we just had some slack rope in the bottom of the boat and I don't recall every tripping over it. The halyard does have to be 'the right length' for this and I seem to remember making it too short and then needing a new one but I'm sure that's one of the perks of working at a boat builders as we had loads of rope?!

- The pole used to come back ok. I am sure that it used to hit the metal support but then bounce it's way back. I'm pretty sure that it used to come back all the way without any drama though. You could fashion an angle wedge to help it on it's way. ( I actually always fancied removing this and replacing it with a carbon number but it never happened) As below... a 3D printed wedge would be excellent.

- No the racks used to just sit on the deck with the U bolt over the top. I don't recall this ever being an issue, but I guess over time it might have been? This feels like a prime job for some nice 3D printed wedges...

- The T-foil on Badgers was always pretty spicy tbh as I am pretty sure that it wasn't possible to get it into a negative angle when it had the twist grip! It was either on a bit or on loads! You could probably do with eyeballing it to be sure. I can't remember if I put those marks on or someone else tbh!

- Waves... hmmm. I am not sure I ever sailed her in 'big waves'. Sailed her in some pretty big winds on flattish water or solent chop but never big waves. I did the nationals at Pwllheli when there were waves but by that point I was back in 2648 so it was a bit different. Probably the same for all of the boats though. As much kicker and cunningham as you can muster and get the weight back. I remember that tacking on the biggest wave day was just all about waiting for a decent point between the waves and then getting it done!

- Clubs... hmmm. I have sailed at a number of clubs in the South West. We lived in Kingsbridge for a while but I never sailed locally to that as it wasn't really ideal for the Cherub. Paignton SC is decent and the launching is ok. I think Exmouth was ok too. Maybe check out Starcross as well? My mate sails at Sidmouth but I think that you are more susceptible to larger swell that far along the coast.

We live near Portsmouth now so the options for Cherub friendly clubs is more plentiful but sadly our lives have moved away from sailing with more mountain biking and child friendly activities! We have family in Exeter so if the stars align maybe we could meet up at some point :-D Did the jib swivel block survive? I designed this and had it machined at work out of some polyprop and it was loads better than the original wedges!

Offline robin_davies

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2023, 07:38:02 PM »
Thank you Tim, that’s great to know all this!
Here’s the current jib block.
I’ll share Badgers photos/videos during Aug.

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: Pintles
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2023, 07:07:28 AM »
Sad times... that is not the one that we spent ages machining! I wonder what happened to that.

Looks like you've been having some fun in the boat. It's great to see.