Reefing sails?

[andy_peters]

I think any rule to restrict sails would need to be a class specific rule written into sailing instructions on a regatta by regatta basis (or standard class S.I's).  IMHO reefing sails will not work on a 05 cherub as the mast bend at the top of the rig means that as the sail comes down the track it will no longer fit the curve and will pull out of/break the mast track.   A second sail is the only practical option of reducing sail area. 

As others have stated the TCO over a number of years is no higher than having a single well maintained suit of sails.  In fact I suspect it is lower as people are prepared to tollerate a more 'blown out' high wind sail.  A single sail that is used across all conditions needs replacing more frequently as I can attest (hence why we had a spare RS200 main to use as a cherub small rig).  In fact most serious 200 sailors have a high wind (older) sail and a newer sail for all other conditions.  In effect a 2 sail programme designed to prolong the life of your best sail. 

[Torchy]

Good point about the mast curve...

Is the consensus that as a class we feel that a second (smaller) main for heavy airs is within the spirit of the rules? I feel that the previous discussion was inconclusive. I thought that a challenge was possible under the '...can't change gear unless damaged...' clause.

[MK]

btw Tim - Loco must have a particularly stiff rig

It doesn't

[BenR]

I would love to restrict to 1 set of sails as that would bring the balance away from favouring lighter crews. It annoys me watching everyone planing past twinning whilst I am still very much in displacement mode and then still be right up there when the wind gets stronger. Allowing 2 sets of sails does not encourage people to be moderate with their no1's. I think we might see some closer racing in lighter winds if people were encouraged to use sails appropriately sized to their weight and skill in all conditions.

That said, it is useful to have an old set of sails for when it is really windy, just from a longevity point of view.

Edit: I am in no way trying to make up excuses for my lack of speed in light winds here. (I know I appreciate a plate of food and could sail better)

[Torchy]

You've just made a good argument for a rule change Ben...then reefing sails might become the norm...and why not?

Matt - maybe I need to yank that Cunningham harder then

[andy_peters]

If 2 suits of sails were banned all the 05 boats who wished to reef would need new masts or an ingenious way of reefing.

Ben, frustrating as it must be in my opinion banning 2 sails will see participation in the class drop.  Having 2 sails gives more people the ability to sail in a greater range of winds.  It is also safer as it cuts down on capsizes/physical exhaustion.   Jill just isn't strong enough to handle a full sized main for an open meeting day in 20knts.  She can manage a cut down one.  If the rule was implemented it would mean we could not safely race a cherub in 18plus knts therefore would not go to opens with this forecast or I would turn up with a bloke (which BTW would be much quicker round the track than Jill and I am with small sails).
 
Surely as a small class we want to be encouraging participation not thinking up rules that limit when people can race.

[roland_trim]

Note for all non-cherub sailors reading this thread.

Due to current adverse weather conditions there are a number of forum members who are currently suffering from "3-sail"withdrawal.

Symptoms include restlessness, grouchiness and a tendency towards long discussions about rule changes...

[BenR]

The counter argument to that is that you should have smaller sails then so you can manage with one set in both the light and the windy stuff thereby normalising for weight.
I feel there might be a lot of slightly bigger teams who would be attracted to the class if they stood a chance of winning something no matter the conditions. (not that that is the only factor in that). Allowing 2 suits of sails makes it pointless me turning up to light wind events because I am always going to be beaten by a light crew with massive sails.

I have no intention of banning it, I was just voicing the other point of view.

[Clive Everest]

One of the biggest flaws of a modern Cherub is that it works really well over quite a narrow wind range.
Having 2 sails goes some way to solving this without adding significant cost.
If banned we would look at a mast reefing system similar to an RS 600 and similar to the system that we used to run on the B18s where we had 2 rigs with one mast and one main.

I suspect that it would be more complex and more costly.

Forcing people to use the same sail for a whole regatta would not make the light weights develop more moderate sails.
Most racing and the closest racing is done in lighter winds. You cannot afford to give up a competitive advantage for the small number of days when you would otherwise have used small sails.

[andy_peters]

Of course the heavy weights do have the option of bigger sails in the light winds.  They are just attached to a bigger boat - called an International 14 

[BenR]

or an 18.
both though mean less people in the class

[ade white]

A good thread this. Thinking laterally, again, if the discussion is moving towards sail size and crew weight, as Ben has mentioned, perhaps the class could look at a overall weight system. Boat and Crew weight = a Max sail size measurement. (I am sure this has been visited many times before). Could it help to aid a more level playing field?  A way of improving the handicap heavyweights have in light air competition.
(I believe this is what the 300 A & B rig systems were supposed to do. Clive will be the expert on this)

When we talk of rules though... As a development class, if the rules evolve to restrict the amount of sails used at events then we will be restricting more ideas and the development of the rigs. The up-side of this topic is that more second-hand sails could be available for the older boats to keep going if any amount of sails are allowed, as is now.
But most importantly the factor for this discussion could be how to keep the heavyweights in the class? or how to attract heavy crews? Could the 12 foot platform be designed with a variable rig configuration to do this better?

[Torchy]

I am for having a second mainsail but I am concerned that the logic of this is easily extended to a second jib (no brainer really, they wear out quickly) to suit the smaller mainsail and a second very flat cut kite and all 3 sails would be used together above, say 18kn.

I did wonder if reefing mains might be a solution and they might be, however I think just having a second main makes sense in many ways eg cost and ease of use.

I think the use of two complete sets of sails would be stretching the current (laudable) laissez faire.

...and yes, Roland I'm suffering from 3 sail withdrawal...well 3 Cherub sail anyway - I was sailing a beautiful clinker built yawl last weekend in a force 6-7 (very big smile)

[PaulJ]

An interesting debate regarding smaller sails.

Our small mainsail is only about 1m2 less in area than our full size one, all the area is taken out of the head, it is cut slightly flatter than our full size main, and is matched to the luff curve of the mast. It is not the only change we make when it's windy, additionally we rake the rig back by 2-3", this helps with the balance of the boat and also opens the leech of the jib depowering that as well, we also ease the uppers (from max power setting) to allow the mast to work a bit more upwind, but not too much for the mast to go over the front downwind. The advantages of the small main are less drag upwind, slightly easier at low speed manoeuvres (start, kite hosts/drops ans tacks) and finally it's quicker to right from a capsize. I don't think its make much difference on the bear away as the t-foil does all the work for us. Note we won the light wind race at the inlands at QM with the small mainsail against a majority of full size sails.

It certainly has saved some wear and tear on the full size main which has now allowed us to go to a lighter cloth saving weight and some money.

There is no reason that the heavier sailors couldn't develop a more powerful rig to increase their light wind performance, stiffer masts, fuller sails, more upright rig, put this on a hull that carries weight a bit better and I would imagine that any performance deficit could be greatly narrowed.

[MikeBz]

Of course the heavy weights do have the option of bigger sails in the light winds.  They are just attached to a bigger boat - called an International 14 

Lightweights have the option of smaller sails in heavy winds.  They are attached to a smaller boat - called a Topaz