pole/spinny launch, what preference for a spogg?

[kokopelli]

Re:- Sweet Dreemzzz makeover. . .  Having not studied the pole kite launch systems . . .  what system should I go for? What is the preference for a 'sprogglett' (a small lightweight crew) on spinny uphaul and pole launch? Is it the combined launch which pull both together (which i think takes a longer halyard and needs more muscle) or the separate launch done in 2 stages - pull out pole and then kite-  (think in that order)? What systems are yer using and what can yer recommend? Kokopelli uses the combined system but the pole is shorter and Joe struggles without any assistance.   I guess the helm could tug out the pole whilst the crew spinny launches??? Help!!!

[roland_trim]

On Evo we have fitted a 2:1 advantage system for the pole, see diag below. This makes it much easier to get the kite to the tip of the pole, but the danger is that the kite goes forward rather than up (and trawls). This is avoided by a distinct lack of anythign causing friction anywhere up the mast. Finding a "clear" route from the return block to the top of the mast is vital for an easy hoist in any case. This also works as a take up for the halyard.

The other thing that makes the hoist and drops easier are the patches on the kite. Two appears to be easier than three, but the real key is to get the overlap correct. If you get it wrong you are pulling the kite inside out past itself in the sock during the launch, personnaly I've been slow on this and only really thought this through with the new kite - getting it right makes a real difference. If you can get the bottom patch to the back of the sock and the the top patch to never cross it -  the hoist and drop get easier and the kite "folds" nicely into the sock. The fold also ensures the top goes up first.

[Clive Everest]

I am sailing with Alex (11) We have a combined system. With lots of regular lube he seems to cope.
I did initially come close to changing the system so that the pole pulled out separately, so that I could do it and help however there is very little room in the cockpit during a hoist, and I am not convinced that it would be better.

I how shout at him a bit louder. This seems particularly effective if there are other young crews close by and we are in a direct hoist match. I also try to run very deep during the critical parts of the hoist so that the kite does not fill and make it even harder.

I am looking at putting a sheave on the end of the pole rather than the trumpet end. I think that sacrificing an inch of pole length will be worth it for the reduced friction .

[BenR]

an alternative (sort of) to the above system attached
This is how it's done on Atum. Especially good for tricky drops with the block at the back of the sock that the helm can give his complaining crew a bit of a hand. Also if you ditch it with the kite up, pulling from behind the drop block can give you a bit less resistance when trying to get the kite in in the water (can be done when standing on the centreboard depending on which way you go in).

[Hayley_Trim]

At the risk of sounding very non-technical (I'll leave that to Roland - see post above), whatever we have just done to Evo worked brilliantly last weekend. I don't think I've ever hoisted and dropped so quickly, easily and smoothly. It came as quite a shock. Admittedly the fact that we were fast running out of lake lent a certain urgency on occasion (people on the shore got a very good view and noted that the drop was PDQ), but the fact that the helm thought he could leave it quite so late suggests he has a lot more confidence in the system.

Unfortunately if your kite sock rips along its entire length, the hoists and drops don't matter so much - it's keeping the kite in the boat going upwind...

[Tim Noyce]

I am keen to try this piece of rope between the 2 patches as I have heard it mentioned a few times. Previously when it was me doing the hoists and drops I kept things basic and simple and just strapped a pair on when required, but to keep things running smoothly and being the loving husband that I am I would like to make things easier for Kate!

So the burning question of the day... how long is the piece of string?!

[roland_trim]

It would be smutty to quote that bit

Not sure if the sketch above is clear, but with the new kite i followed:

1) Hang kite by the ring on the bottom patch from cieling or other high object i.e. the bit the kite halyard goes through.  Tack and clew should be together, if not patches are not in correct place or you have the kite upsidedown.
2) Hang kite via strop to upper patch form the same place (at the same time). Adjust strop so all three corners of kite come to same point. By the system I've targeted for the new kite the strop should be needed on top patch. If not I'd reccomend moving the patches.
3) Tie Halyard onto Strop and through ring on bottom patch, it will enter the sock in the same folds as it hangs (ish).

[PaulJ]

Ronin has the same system as per the Atum sketch. We spent a long time checking that everything ran smoothly and upgraded some of the blocks as well. Loads of Prolube also works wonders. We tie a large bowline (6") in the kite downhaul to stagger the patches in the spinnaker sock as per Rolands suggestion. We also have found a couple of times that if something snagged or loaded up Peter thought he had got the kite to the top and stopped pulling which normally ended with a trawl, to solve this we have a very big mark on the spinnaker halyard that is just past the cleat when the kite is fully hoisted. He now just keeps pulling until he sees the mark.

The biggest gain I have found is to bribe him with chocolate for each good hoist and drop, it worked wonders :-)

[phil_kirk]

Having just changed from a three patch kite to a two patch (it's the same kite but now with measles) I can agree that is certainly easier for the crew to hoist and drop with less bunching around the chute.   i had not gone down this route thinking that I needed a longer sock to accomodate a two patch system. We always staggered each patch by 30cm.  In three patch mode the top and bottom patches were 1.9m from the corners with the middle patch in between the top and bottom ones. The kite could be drawn deep into the sock.

I managed to squeeze it in by having the top patch go to the back of the sock followed by the lower patch.  The reason for this is that the bringing the top patch down still allowed much of the leach to be drawn into the sock.  If I had made the bottom patch the longer bit this patch wouldn't be much further up the kite and I would have still needed three ptaches.

Our sock is 2.7m from the bow to the inborad end and 2.3m from the mouth of the chute to the inboard end.  I allowed all the corners to be in front of the mouth of the chute.  So the top patch is  2.6m from the head of the kite. The bottom patch is about 2.4m from each lower corner. 

I like EVO's additional purchase.  It requires a bit more halyard to pull but if it's much faster and can be done hand over hand it will be quicker.  If the tack goes out first I would question that the bottom patch should go to the back of the sock because you will be pulling the bttom of the kite past the top bit.

Good thread though.

[Will_Lee]

Marking halyard - yes. We had thin halyards which were fat only where they hit the cleat when the kite was right up, so that kinda marked itself.

Patches - People have different views. Two patches means a longer sausage and probably means a slower hoist for that reason. Three patches might be expected to be harder, but if everything really works we found it fine.

Patches - we put the ring of the bottom and middle patches on strings. 450mm and 300mm from memory. This had the effect of separating the three patches as they go into the chute. I do not recommend having the patches moved so that the corners are all equal when you stagger the patches. This is because if the corners are all at the chute mouth at the same time they may jam up and cause difficulties. It is also because (we think) you actually want the head to go in first, followed by the clew and then the tack. If the head is furthest out, the motion when going upwind may pull it out. Similarly the clew, esp if the sheets get in the water. With the head in first, when you hoist, you pull the head section back past the other bits of kite, true, but we think this is better than the slower (though probably less trawl-risky) two patch approach.

Three patches became the norm in 2005, but I guess there is no obstacle to 2 patches, except for sock length.

[john_hamilton]

roland, what does the triple floating block on your system look like, i like the idea!!!

[andy_peters]

Also the size and angle of your hoop makes a huge difference we have a large and relatively upright hoop making a big mouth to fill.  We have 3 patches - bottom one has a string about a foot long.  No strings on the others but we have a knot with a bobble about a foot down from the top patch to separate this from the middle one. 

Getting this right was about the only thing on the boat Jill was concerned about and it has received her seal of approval.

[kokopelli]

 Thanks, ab fab for the pole/spinny thead... i think i know what to do now (ish). Today i have been cutting up sails and 'sailmaking (of a fashion)'.
the older 97 main was too long for the mast so i got the scissors out! I now have the option of 2, 97 rigs and an 05 rig. After some measuring I can now sail 97 rules on 2 totally different sail set ups. Large main and Small jib. Small main and Large jib. (The 05 is large and large but I am not thinking seriously of that option yet). I am really looking forwards to testing these in August. What experiences have yer had with these variations?

[Phil Alderson]

The 97 rules change was designed so that you could upgrade from 1990 area by putting a snout on and using a large jib with the same main.

Once the new build 97 rules boats started appearing they typically had smaller self tacking jibs matched against a larger main.

so both have history of working, you just have to try them and see what the balance feels like.

[phil_kirk]

The modified Sweet dreams rig has a very high hounds height.  It's less than 1m from the top of the mast with the mast fitting the mast cap limit.