Author Topic: Mould or jig  (Read 32498 times)

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roland_trim

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 02:13:07 PM »
Any advice?
Talk to Wiz or Dave Ching and try to find some carbon  ;D

Offline Will_Lee

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 02:18:50 PM »
200g carbon biax seems to be the most popular for hulls these days, but weave, esp 2x2 or more twill is also ok.

I layer of this on the insides and on the topsides. Two layers on the deck where it is stood on and the bottom where it is put down on the beach. (We call this
'knees to nipples")

In the past 300g has been thought to be too heavy to build a boat down to weight, but it may be different now because there is so little boat.

Foam: 80 kg bottom and top. 60 kg topsides.


Offline ross_burkin

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 03:37:11 PM »
Ditch the Kevlar. It's a bugger to work with...unless it's free...
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roland_trim

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 07:17:43 PM »
Ditch the Kevlar. It's a bugger to work with...unless it's free...
It also is not really doing much.  I will devote a chapter in my mythical book on why Kevlar is not what it is "cracked" up to be....

Kevlar has 2ce the young's modulus, but the real advantage from the second layer is the laminte thickness (d^3 for stiffness, d^2 for strength), plus having two layers to set up a "push pull" really delivers more than this as the layers are spaced out more than just the single fibre  thickness. Tim U. can give you true chapter and verse on this if asked nicely. After having a Kevlar hull to work on I am convinced it is not what we should be using at home.

More usefully:
EJ used 1 layer 200g carbon weave everywhere, 1 layer extra 200g glass on bottom and knees to nipples on deck (but again have only sailed her 2ce). Strawberry's E5 was the same reciepe, but glass all over (although this still embroylic). All up we bought under 30m x 1.2m. 
We used 80kg foam all over (as I bought the wrong stuff). My guess is that the worse loading on these boats happens on shore and from the crew/helm colliding when the boat stops and they don't, so I lived with the heavier foam.

I really would tap Wiz (Matrix, details on the Wiki + other suppliers) - the extra £'s for the carbon pails into nothing after all the time you are putting in and the resin/consumables - not to mention the paint and fittings (if you have not already costed the resin, remember for all that cloth you will need more juice). On the other hand I think it would be viable in glass, but you have given up one of your "get out of jail free" cards from having everything ludicrously overstrength.

Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 08:45:11 PM »
Thanks for that. I am thinking of glass/carbon now as EJ. My maths being the skins require about 7-8m for the carbon each. This works out at 2x8x£18 = ~£320. Not a big difference in cost relative to the resin and foam.

PS: feel free to correct my maths. 

Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2009, 12:44:52 PM »
Have a look at the attached spreadsheet for calculating layups and part weights, you can specify your layup and it will give the ammout of cloth required and a predicted weight. There is quite a bit of estimation in the weight, changing the predicted weights to the same as dwlee posted would probably be a good idea. Also there is no waistage or joints and detail bits included in the list so you would need to add a bit more than the spreadsheet shows.

The areas are taken from a design I did a while ago it is min width and min freeboard.
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Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2009, 04:27:30 PM »
Thanks for that. I am currently thinking about building up a sort of trus structure in carbon uni to provide the stiffness and a light layer of glass to keep the water out.

Offline john_hamilton

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2009, 05:03:43 PM »
phil, in your spreadsheet, what is meant by forward crew deck? i hought it was a foredeck at first but that is also mentioned????
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Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2009, 08:56:47 PM »
Hi John,
If you have a foredeck you can get away with a lighter layup on the bit of the crew deck that is under the foredeck, so I split out the forward part of the crew deck. in the calcs.

Also the area for the foredeck is small as I was planing, just a small bit around the mast supporting the jib track like I did on Primal, after the rebuild



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Offline john_hamilton

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2009, 12:26:30 AM »
oh ok thanks :)
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail

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Offline Banshee Ambulance

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Re: Mould or jig
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2009, 12:55:08 PM »
Ditch the Kevlar. It's a bugger to work with...unless it's free...

Ross, What layup did you use on your glass E5?