Permanently Attached Safety equipment

[Dave_Fudge]

It's a Gul Garda. It doesn't look like it would support a hamster but it works a treat on a chunkster like me.

[daryl_wilkinson]

If I was going to carry 'air' I'm not sure where I would keep it. Could be just behind my center tower so there is a chance the trapped crew member could reach it? Could be cut into the underside of the gantry so it is accessible if the boat is turtled by the other crew member? Don't know. As for the rescuer paying the ultimate price, so be it, you'll understand when you have kids. The only difference being at least I have some oxygen with me! If it's my son trying to save me, hopefully I would have briefed him well enough for him not to bother.

At least this thread has clarified one thing for me. None of you manly bunch are going to jump in after me! 

[roland_trim]

At least this thread has clarified one thing for me. None of you manly bunch are going to jump in after me! 

Dazza, I agree the safest way to avoid the issue is to never put the boat in the water, but just can't follow your examplar lead of this approach 

[daryl_wilkinson]

Hey unfair! 

I can't help it if Scumbags nick my trailer and it has to built twice along with the cradles, boat builders don't do what they have told and have to do it again and again and again, and sail makers file your order in the ash tray of the car! Crazy chandelers go off on one and try and stiff you for an incomplete fittings order which was competitivly quoted against other suppliers! Can I!

And err... not to mention the credit crunch.... Advertising not been doing to well recently 

But you are right I'm well known for no participation in risky sports...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=12517

[Will_Lee]

So drunk that you couldn't walk? (and even your camera tipped over!)

[daryl_wilkinson]

you mean the pics on the 'Cosmique Arete'? Or the Petite Vert? It can be challenging taking pictures in those environments, establishing a perfect horizon was not top of my mind.

Would you prefer some pics of me Paragliding instead? Red Bull and Vodka gives you wings.



edit: Ahhhh..... sorry I get it now.... being a bit thick. Yes getting home from the local last winter was a terrible job!

[phil_kirk]

An interesting thread.

I support the notion of carrying safety equipment and now don't believe a simple folding knife in the pocket of your buoyancy aid is sufficient. 
I don't think the class rules should determine what safety equipment should be carried by a crew because this could infer that if an incident occured the class could be made partially responsible. It is a personal decision to fit or carry safety equipment (appart from buoyancy aids which are mandated by clubs as part of their rules).

Equipment attached to the boat is only usefull if it is in reach from the entrapped position.

As Dave infers without the experience of the situation and training to use the equipment you have you will not get much if any benefit from your safety equipment.

I would expect that a normal person might hold their breath for about 15 seconds at best before panicking after an unexpected dunking.

I think access to air would have to be imeadiate and is best carried on your person.   If anyone has done scuba diving, the drill to recover a lost mouth peice, purge it and start breathing normally takes a few seconds when you are calm.  It would not be so easy if you were trapped and panicking.

After reading the other posts.

I would ( and plan to) carry a knife on my person that I can get at quickly, one handed.

I also plan to try and keep my boat simple without too many potential snaggs.

I tried to make Slippery's mast sealed filling the holes around shroud terminals with silicone sealant. This was partly successful.  The boat can turtle quite quickly but does so more in waves.  I will certainly try sealing the current mast more efffectively because it should help. Most unballasted boats will turttle in waves and those with false floors and without side tanks are more prone. Boats with only side tanks and no floor tanks are more likely to stay turtled which can make matters worse. They at least have an air pocket when upside down.

No ideal answer springs to mind.  We take a calculated risk everytime we go afloat.

[daryl_wilkinson]

I think I'd like to make a rule proposal.

Something along the lines of...

Any additional safety equipment carried fixed to the hull shall constitute part to the boats minimum weight.

Any thoughts?

[Phil Alderson]

The Equipment Rules of Sailing basically tell you to look at your class rules

H.7  WEIGHT MEASUREMENT
H.7.1  Conditions for Weight Measurement
The boat shall:
be dry.
be in compliance with the class rules.

4.1.7 Weight - The weight of the hull in dry condition shall not be less than 50kg. The weight shall include all permanently fixed fittings and bowsprit, but shall exclude sails, spars, standing rigging, centreboard, rudder and other loose gear.

with the current rules if your safety equipment is permanently fitted, then it would be included, however if it is loose gear it is not.

Presumably there would be some sort of bracket permanently attached to your boat that would allow for the quick release of your safety equipment if you needed to use it.

I would suggest that if you were to state that the safety equipment were always to be carried while you were racing then it could be classed as permanent and so part of the all up weight.

It is then up to you to ensure that all equipment present when the boat was weighed is present at all times when racing, if it falls off then you would have to retire from the race.

[daryl_wilkinson]

Yes If I state that I will always carry the safety equipment on some quick release bracket, I'm sure that it could be classed as permanent. But it's a bit grey isn't it. It's the word permanently thats the problem. ( is it permanent, as in always on-board or permanent as in fixed and not removable ) If we took the same approach with other rules where would we be?

By the way this safety equipment could be distress flares, a knife or an Anchor just as much as Spare Air.

[Phil Alderson]

I do not see how it is grey, if the equipment is in a bracket firmly attached to the boat and you say that it is permanent you will always have it on the boat when racing then counting it as part of the permanent fittings on the boat seems reasonable.  If the equipment is rolling around the cockpit tied with a grotty bit of string then it would probably not be counted as permanent.

With the measurement of boats there has to be an element of trust of the competitor, as there is not much to stop someone from changing their boat, removing lead after measurement and cheating.

It is not possible to have an iron clad definition of permanent, i.e. is something tied on permanent? does it have to be bolted on? glued on?


If you are thinking of taking this safety equipment with you sometimes and leaving it ashore sometimes then it is not permanent and so should not count as part of your weight. If that is the case then a specific rule saying that permanent safety equipment is allowable will not help you.

[daryl_wilkinson]

OK, so if the safety equipment was held on / down with a rope and cam-cleat for instance, is that permanent?

[Tim Noyce]

I think that this is a topic which could be argued indefinitely. A permanent fixture is not one which you can remove quickly! Which is obviously bad in the case of safety equipment!

My view on the matter is, If safety really is so paramount, you wont mind carrying a few extra kilos above the minimum weight to have it on board. If the situation were to arise that you needed to use said equipment then having a down to weight boat would be the last thing on your mind, and you would be pleased that the "penalty" of carrying the extra weight had been worth while.

Just my take on the situation anyway!

[roland_trim]

I think the situation is actually very clear:

If it is included in your measurement weight then permenant simply means you must always sail with it (i.e. it must be there for the entire race). If it falls off (or is used) you have retired.

[daryl_wilkinson]

But you can see in the last two post two different opinions of the subject. Hence why i was looking for definition. Or the addition of a new rule or amendment of a rule.

I might add why should safety be penalized?