Ronin - winter refit

[roland_trim]

Re  dust - it may be of interest?
After sneezing black for a couple of days last year we've upgraded to "spray masks". They cost about £13 for a car spray shop, have "active carbon filters" and make you sound like Vader (neither of the last two are any use for cherub dust, but help identify the mask type).

After moving on from the paper mask the dust quota in my nose has dropped to zero and I can sand for an extra few hours :-)

[PaulJ]

That looks like a very thorough going over with the abrasive! Looking good.

Have you decided on a colour for the respray or is it going to be white again?

It's definately not going to be white, more than likely a grey just need to decide on how light/dark/blue to go, will decide when I see the colour card on Saturday.  Non slip will be put on afterwards in clear coat after lots of masking nice curved corners, strips etc.

[Tim Noyce]

Sounds good... I have painted my last 2 boats a nice shade of Dolphin Grey. Dark enough not to be white but not so dark it gets very warm in the sun!

[PaulJ]

Ronin now in sunny Weymouth ready for some new paint, Medium Grey Awlgrip has been chosen, with matt clear coat over the non slip, should look good

By the end of the week the epoxy primer should be on, so painted white for a week whilst it cures, then yet more sanding before two top coats

Garage swept and cleaned, over 1. 5kg of sanding dust went into the bin

Should be really for collection on the 10th Dec, fittings back on the following week ready for a test sail before the Grafam Grand Prix.

Work now begins above deck, going to make a new spare boom from the broken pieces of a 40. 7 spinnaker pole that I have kept for 4 years, going to fit a gnav to this boom and see whether it helps with some of boat handling etc.  The other advantage will be the dagger board can be raised much further for those windy days, and launching and recovery

The aluminium mast track is going to be replaced by a carbon one to stiffen the mast fore and aft ready for a new suit of sails from P&B in the new year.  We are going for a straighter rig with flatter sails, these will be based on the design used by Roger Gilbert at the I14 Worlds.  This does mean we will have to be able to change rake quickly and easily (more importantly safely), so a pin double fast pin system will to added to the shrouds, already have a purchase on the forestay, which works fine.  Adjustable lowers will probably need to be added as well, but we haven't made that final decision yet.

[Clive Everest]

Hi Paul,
I have just brought The Subtle Knife and joined the father son Cherub club to sail with Alex (10).
We had our first couple of sails this weekend at Hayling.  Conditions could not have been better.
I want to make an mods that are possible to make it easier for Alex, and me, however we will not have many chances to sail it before winter kicks in properly, and I do not want to make too many modifications before we really know what will work.

Your mods to the spinnaker chute mouth seem very sensible.  I am sure that we will do the same, our boat has the same issue.

The jib sheets on our boat cleat / uncleat by pulling forwards / backwards rather than up / down.
This does not work so well I was going to change it to a conventional up down system.
Why are you making the jib cleat tower higher? I would have kept the cleat on the floor so that there was less to trip over.
I was also tempted to move the cleat forward so that it is just behind the centreboard as we need to be further forward in the boat due to the excessive weight at the back.

I was also tempted to separate the pole launch from the kite halyard, and put it on a separate pump system.
This would allow me to help Alex pull it out of the sock and there will be a few feet less for him to hoist.
On the drops I think that it may be lees likely to fall in the water if he can blow the pole and pull the slack from down-haul so that the kite is collapsed and above the chute when the halyard in blown.
My concern is that they may not be enough room in the cockpit for us both to be active at the same time.

I was also going to try and adapt one of these
hxxp: www. ebay. co. uk/itm/Wireless-Fish-Finder-Sonar-Aerial-River-Lake-Sea-/300626275822?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item45feb8edee
to make the daggerboard case last longer in the harbour.  It sounds as though it would also be useful at Weir Wood.

Any thoughts from more experienced cherub sailors would be most welcome.

Clive

[roland_trim]

Well done Clive and welcome. Subtle is an excellent buy.

Although over 10 years old Hayley is sub 50kg. I wondered about re-fitting a tack/help line, but now I frequently do not make it in from the wire during the drops. It does get much easier with practice, but making it easier makes the mistakes less catastrophic.

[Tim Noyce]

Hi Clive,

Pleased to hear that you have bought Subtle, it is a great boat. I hear what you are saying about the having the pole launch as a seperate purchase but I do wonder if you will be able to get it to work effectively as there won't be that much space in the cockpit when you are going for the hoist. Once you have born away you will need to be at the back of the boat which will further reduce how much space you have to play with.

From some experience sailing the Badgers Nadger, generally when we hoisted, Alex (the helm) would either stay on the rack or on the wire to balance the boat and give you some options. (I elbowed Alex in the face pretty badly once early on when he was in the cockpit for the hoist and since then he decided it best to stay out on the wire!)

One thing that was noticeable in the Badger, was that when it was new and everything was running smoothly then the hoists/drops were a real delight. We spent a fair bit of time making sure that all of the blocks were aligned to reduce friction, the sock was sprayed up with lube around the mouth, and the bungee take ups on the mast were all free and running smoothly. Also, keeping the spinnaker coated with waterproofing makes it less likely to bunch up into a horrible mess inside the sock. Rounding off the corners of the chute may be benefical though, and maybe a new sock with added depth should reduce the friction inside the sock. On a windy day I would often pull as much of the kite into the sock as possible before blowing the halyard but I guess the technique comes with practise (and being twice the size of your son!

Not sure what you mean by your jib cleat, we just had a standard cleat with a riser block on my boat which was bolted a few inches behind the daggerboard case. The position was fine but I never felt that it really worked as well as it should have done. Anyway, just some rambled thoughts on the matter... I am sure that other people will chip in with their thoughts!

[PaulJ]

Hi Clive

Good to see you join the fleet, should be fun with a few father and son teams sailing together next year

Jib Cleat - Peter has trouble cleating the jib from the wire, we have already bent up the cleat a bit, but it's still not ideal, we are probably going to add another inch to the tower which should solve the problem.

Spinnaker hoists and drops - we have and are working really hard to make this as easy as possible. Hopefully the chute mouth is the biggest improvement, but we have already made the sock bigger and upgraded all the blocks to 40mm harken blocks, both helped. Loads of prolube also does the trick

It's the drops that are the real problem, but we have worked hard on the technique which has improved things. I really make sure that I run off really deep so the kite stays a bit more forward, Peter then really tries to keep the momentum going as the kite either comes round the forestay or enters the chute (normally jumps off the deck at this point which is amusing to see), a small pause seems to make it really hard work, I also have to resist the tempation to head up early as that just blows the kite backwards again. We also tie a big bowline in the downhaul which means that the two patches come down individually rather than one big lump.

[PaulJ]

Unfortunately time run out at home so Monkey Marine (Sam Pascoe) is now doing some of the bigger jobs

Latest progress photos of the new Ronin spinnaker chute, moulded around a barrel of resin

[roland_trim]

We moved to 2 patches to make the drops easier. Yes you do need to space the patches, on ours the lowest patch has 2ft of dyneema and a ring to space them out in the sock. Typing this makes me realise this must make the beginning of the next hoist more difficult as the cloth needs to cross in the sock - I see a plastic bobble being added to that in the near future.

The easiest way to drop is to bring the kite down around the jib. Conventionally the kite halyard goes up from the sock outside the Port side of the rig, making the easiest drop on Port. This can significantly help a crew whose arms are falling off.

I find it helps if I round up more as the patch comes round the forestay, but this only works if I'm on a wire and can keep it flat.

[Phil Alderson]

To help with the drops I have fitted a auto trip to the downhaul, it uncleats when the downhaul gets tight, so you can just keep on pulling the downhaul. Pausing to let go allows the kite to fall in the water

Another thing that made life eisier was moving the bottom patch further towards the clew so that when the downhaul is pulled tight, before the halyard lets go, the patch and some of the cloth is pulled around the forestay.

[john_hamilton]

how does that work phil

[Will_Lee]

What a lot of activity! Welcome PaulJ and Clive.

1) Jib cleat. On Atum we replaced the plate between the bulls eye and the the cleat with one which was much longer and placed it on the floor. This was for ergonomics. If the plate is too short, even if you bend it upwards, the rope needs to move a long way (up and down) to uncleat and cleat. This may be ok for the crew but for the helm soon becomes impossible (the helm is further away).  This was ok, but (as helm) I found myself pulling the jib sheet under my leg to ensure it cleated. On Antidote we fitted a much bigger cleat on a 30mm turret which was still not perfect. A huge turret is a mechanical problem as well as a trip hazard.

2) Kite drops. separating the patches and lubing everything really helps. We reckon that getting the downhaul reasonably tight (and getting the patch or ring to which the patch is attached) round the forestay as you blow the halyard helps. Also a rule of thumb is once the patches are in, the rest will follow. So that is one big pull with one hand (while you blow the halyard), one with the other hand, and then one more with the left hand again. Then it is both hands to get the whole thing in. (quick! quick! quick! slow! slow! slow! (and possibly another half slow).

3) Rake alterations: I am v interested to see how you get on with this.

4)  Kite drops: We had a string on the bottom patch with a ring spliced on the end. 60cm on the bottom patch, 30cm on the middle patch and nothing on the top patch. The downhaul line goes through the rings. This mean the top patch goes in first.

5) Helms for hoists etc: I tried to stay on the wire for hoists, but never made it work. I stay hooked on, but am hovering over the bar bearing down deep to facilitate a really quick hoist. If impossible due to boats down there or whatever, we stay up, but taking  special care the kite sheets are running double freely. I still think the 'optimal' hoist is one with the boat pointing v low, but I can see which way the wind is blowing and am ready to be wrong!

6) More drops: a shock chord desprangler which runs from a bit above the head of the jib and keeps the halyard against the mast helps with drops also, but you have to switch from quick+easy to slow+hard as you pull it down.

Hope some of this is of some help. Oh yes - a really deep bear away at blow time helps it stay above the sock for those two seconds before the patches go in.

Will

[phil_kirk]

Sarah is in the sub 50kg crew club too but we have rigged our boat similar to most modern cherubs.

Hoists - we changed to a larger chute after the first season and have quite a voluminous sock.  Coating the kite also makes a big difference with used sails. Block alignment and lubrication is also important.  As Tim has said a seperate pole launch line may be difficult to work in practice unless the crew pulls the pole out first and then hoists the kite. Keeping some speed on during the hoists does improve the balance of the boat and gives the crew a more stable platform. A deep bear away for the final pull or to is a must though. Friction is usually the biggest driver rather than length of halyard. The pole should not have much friction on it but I would be really interesting to see how you get on.  next best thing to speed up the hoists is probably some hard labour for the crew to build up their muscles

Drops: our patches are spaced as Will recomends but i have wondered if it is possible to rig it so that the lower patch goes in first.  The technique is to pull the slack of the down haul in which should get the lower patch round the forestay and over the sock. When the halyard is blown the crews other hand should be taking the biggest armfull of downhaul in to get the patches into the mouth of the chute.  This is the point where all those low friction blocks work against you as they make the kite fall down quicker.

Jib cleat: ours is on the centreline at the forward end of the case on a turret about 10cm high.  This is also angled forwards.  this means that both the helm and crew can cleat and un cleat the jib but only if the crew is not to far forward. in the lighter conditions where the helm will be siring and the crew in the middle it is much easier for the crew to adjust the jib from the cockpit.

New ideas are good and worth trying.  We have found you have to try these things and develop a technique around them before you can evaluate weather there is a benifit. Smaller crews may benifit from different systems so we will be watching with interest.

[Phil Alderson]

how does that work phil

For the Auto trip I have two turning blocks at the back of the boat not too far apart with a floating block in between (this can also be used for the elastic takeup) the trip line is  tied to the floating block which goes forward and then up under the foredeck so that it pulls from directly above the cleat.
At the front end of the trip line is a stainless steel ring, and the haliard passes through this just forward of the cleat. When the retreaval line pulls tight it pulls the trip line and that lifts the haliard out of the cleat.

It needs something to keep the SS ring close to the cleat, but once the length of the trip line is set it works supprisingly well.