NOR Queries - UK Cherub Nationals 2011

[MK]

Very unhappy about SI 7.3

7.3 If a different helm completes a race in the same boat then they will be scored as a separate entry and their results cannot be combined with the results achieved by another helm.

This is very old and stupid view of sailing, where the helm is everything, the unofficial way the cherubs have always worked as far as i have known the class is, 1 crew must remain constant, this unfairly punishes a crew if their helm is ill one day and they need a stand in, but not the other way round, we sail cherubs in teams, not a crew working for a helm

[roland_trim]

I'm not sure I'm unhappy, but does seem a little way off the usual gents agreement that has let this happen in previous years.

There several boats where swapping the steering would not be too shabby an idea (Hayley's helming would be better than mine).

[MK]

No team will want to have to change but sometimes it is unavoidable, i only predict this really harming the teams who are just along for a play, or people who turn up with a boat but no helm, for example John was asking around for a helm for Cheese and Rohanna, i am not sure if this is still the case, but if she ended up having 2 or 3 helms based on who was around each day, why is it fair that she cannot have a series score

[roland_trim]

+1

If I understand you are saying we request to:

? keep 
"2.3   Each boat shall be sailed by the same helm and nominated crew(s) throughout the series. Substitution of competitors will not be allowed without prior written approval of the race committee."

?Strike
"7.3 7.3   If a different helm completes a race in the same boat then they will be scored as a separate entry and their results cannot be combined with the results achieved by another helm."

Note:
The latter would boost the apparent number of entries, but in a way I'm not too sure I'd like.

[roland_trim]

Associateion membership number?
54 46 (that's my number)

[phil_kirk]

I am liable to agree that changing a helm should not be punished any more than changing a crew. 

If a new helm is treated as a new entry would they have to pay a new entry fee. if not they are not really a new entry.  We may agree that a boat who has changed more than one element of boat helm and crew through the event should not be eligable for a trophy/prize.

These details are an effect from not sitting down with the club and agreeing a NOR or S.Is before they are published.  If we want specific rules or clauses we need to discuss them with the club.  The responsibility of agreeing these documents should not be left to one person because it needs this discussion to take place. Doing this will help the club to provide the event we want rather than the event they provided for another class.

[Phil Alderson]

I had a look at this issue when rewriting the club sailing instructions, and if you substitute helm with "person in charge" then provided one person remains with the boat all is OK

It is possible to structure the entry so that the entering entity is the boat, however that can be quite complex.

[phil_kirk]

I have discussed this with Simon who plans to talk to Graham as well.

My view is that a helm or crew could be changed but the decision to allow the change would be at the discretion of the race committee.  i.e. if helm or crew suffered an illness part way through the week they would apply to the race committee for a substitutionand it would probably be granted.

In dinghy circles it is more often that the recognition goes to the helm rather than the boat.  If we winners were invited to sail the Endevour trophy the helm can't be substituted but i believe crews can.

In yachting circles the SI.S may reffer to the owner for safety responsibilities but only because he or she may not be the helm/ tactician, navigator, crew boss etc.

[simon_jones]

My concern with this is that the helm is named national champion, its the helms name that goes on the trophy. If you were in first place on Thursday and on Friday the 2nd place boat swapped helms took three bullets and won the event. The boat that was previously 1st could feel that without that change they would have won, also which helm would then be named champion?
My only experiance with this was in a 29er nationals when Dean was unwell for 2 days, I was allowed to sail with another helm however the boat ended up with two entries / results. As we were not in a winning position it did not matter I was happy to be allowed to sail.
The issue as I see it is that there needs to be a rule that applies to all, evan if we feel that its ok to swap around further down the fleet in the interest of numbers on the water etc. While we allow swapping in the TT to help encourage turnouts should we allow it at the nationals which is a more serious competition.
Perhaps Phils idea that any change in crew/helm needs written consent of the race committee as any other sailor may have an interest in allowing a change or not. While I feel that if someone is unwell it seems unfair to punish the crew/helm team, should it be allowed if someone could only get two days off work therefore need a standin for two days?
This probably looks a little like incoherant babble but the more I think about it the more questions / issues it seems to raise.

[Phil Alderson]

TBH I think that both names should go on the trophy, it is a team game afterall.

I have seen the "written permission of the race office" requirement quite often at events for changes to kit, or crew but have never seen a letter from the race office, or heard of a protest asking for the letter.

If it is never used or enforced an alternative that works should be substituted.

I am not going to be doing the nationals so my opinion on how they are run should be ignored.

[MK]

This is the old fashioned attitude, the endeavour does it, so does the cherub trophy, i think the cherub is one of the most important boats when it comes to teamwork and both names should be on the trophy, something i will propose when we fill up the current one is that it will have space for both on whatever we decide to replace it with.

I think the rule should read

2.3  Substitution of competitors will not be allowed without prior written approval of the race committee.

7.3   If substitution of competitors occurs they will keep there previous results as long as one competitor remains constant

[phil_kirk]

II agree that helms and crews are more equal in the cherub class.  If I win a trophy i always ensure that it is engraved with helm and crews names.  A lot of the Ent trophies do this going back to 1962 where most of them start. There are also crew trophies going back to the same point. In fact the first lady crew's trophy for the ent nationals is the largest trophy the class awards.

There are no rules to say what you can engrave on a trophy however most people follow what the last winner had done.
A number of the trophies have not been engraved at all for years. should we be bringing these up to date to provide a better record of the class history?

My overriding point is that changing helms or crews should be at the discression of the race committee otherwise it is able to be abused.  I'm not suggesting at any point that people will abuse the freedom to change crews or helms.

[phil_kirk]

Scoring 7.2 One race is required to constitute a series.

This may be ok for a one day open meeting but when we have 12 races planned over 4 days this minimum number should at least be 3 races if not 4 or 5.

[andy_peters]

Agree with Phil.  3 races minimum for a Nationals e.g. one full day

[MK]

Yep, agree with andy and phil