pole/spinny launch, what preference for a spogg?

[ade white]

After a bit of lateral thinking Joe and I are going to experiment with a bag system.
Our thoughts for this are mainly due to the fact that we sail on a puddle.
Problems we have encountered so far necessitate getting the kite down fast and not able to bear way enough to balance the boat safely enough in extreme tight areas (ie running out of water and land being too close to miss). we also have problems with massive windshifts, gusts and racing courses not suitable for overpowered assymetric Cherubs.
Therefore part of the idea is so that we can de-power quickly and bring the kite in on the windward guy and stuff into the bowbag. Joe maybe able to do it still on the wire!!! (well not really but I'm positive thinking about the mechanics of it) I also think the benefit of both on the windward side and not loosing track could be an advantage.
I am thinking of the pole being separate to the uphaul and on a bungie bringing it back in. Therefore the tack is bagged as well.
Our hoist system is currently crap as i havent changed it since getting the boat and its all wrong anyway. (It could have been I I got the set up all wrong though)
If it works on our trials we will be playing with it at the inlands so you can see if it works as well.
Has anyone tried bagging on Cherubs before and if so what were the results. I have sailed loads of other spinny boats with bag systems but never tried assyms. I see the 18s do it so it must work if set up well. Any other thoughts greatly appreciated...

[MK]

Bagging a kite is much harder and its only done on 18s because the kites are impractically large to use a sock system, it also becomes much much harder to do if you try to stay high

Why cant you drop it from the windward side currently?

[ade white]

Hi MK.  Is that Matt Kiddle? if so can you PM me. We maybe bringing both Kokopelli and Sweet Dreamzzz boats to QM. I need to know if you are still interested in Koko.  I cant access the members areas and get peoples contacts or update photos and stuff on the site so u need to PM me as i cant u.

Anyway.. Back to 'baggin' I think our launch and retrieve set up is not good, its too slow and takes too much effort. So, therefore, we need to change the system anyway. I think i will still try baggin. Obviously there will be a learning curve and dropping the kite will need to be synchronized and practiced to work effectively. I guess, i think, what you are R saying is don't bother trying its doomed to failure...  From your own experience is it worth trying???

[MK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoJCSmkaXus&feature=plcp

You can see from around 35 seconds into this the two stages of a bag drop, it is quite uncommon for the middleman to do the pull round part and obviously in a double hander you do not have this option but it is a good example to show how physical a job it is, the resistance of pulling the entire kite round the forestay is significant (Of course this part is removed if you gybe drop each time), and keeping it in check for the drop without a trawl is quite a skill

I would not try it if i were you, sort your chute system, widen the hoop, align blocks if necessary, hayley is an expert on this sort of thing hopefully she can come along with some tips

[ade white]

yes thanks i can see from the youtube the physical strength needed. joe just wouldnt be able to haul it at all. cheers ade.

[Neil C.]

The biggest problem with a bag drop from my experience in the 12, is what happens when you capsize with the kite up. With the boat on its side you have no hope of bagging it into the leeward bin, as it's now underwater. So the whole big, wet, heavy kite has to be dragged up out of the water, round the forestay into the upper bin. A real arm-killer. The Platypus design Cherub now known as "Therapy" (2656 I think) was originally built with a bag system for a '91 Rules kite. The fact that nobody copied it says something though.

[gav_sims]

I tried bags (without the bags) on Mango for part of a season when I first fitted a big kite.  It was possibly fractionally quicker to hoist but slower on the drops.  It was easier to trawl and as Neil mentioned took more effort to put away than a chute if you capsized with it up.  You also have plenty of halyard to do something with when the kite is up.

[ade white]

Thanks for the info guys. Your experiences are an invaluable source that leads me to focus on re-designing the chute entry and re-doing the uphaul/downhaul systems - so to make it easier!
I think we will go and try it out just for the craic and the extra experience for Joe to have tested (struggled) and formed his own opinions through trying.

[phil_kirk]

There is no harm in trying even if it to prove to your self that another way is best. 

We changed the chute mouth on slippery from a trinagular shape to a semi circular shape.  It meant you could recover a trawled kite and generally made things easier for the crew.

As above we also found on E-numbers that a bigger chute bigger sock and fewer patches make a big difference. Our halyard systems have always been aligned well because I spend to much time on that sort of thing and in a sad sort of way enjoy it.

I think it has been said before that with the two string system the pole also launches the tack which with a long pole has to pull a lot of kite out of the sock.  Set this up ashore and get joe to try this first stage. You may also find that this leads to a trawl unless the halyard is hoisted very soon afterwards.

[ade white]

Yes, at the nationals Joe and I did a lot of trawling and I had to reverse the boat a few times, which was tricky, just to get the bloody thing out of the water. We still have some sorting to do. I have already changed the uphaul system to a 2 to 1. Whereby 1 pull brings out both pole and kite and Joe says it is a lot better than before. He needs to move and pull much faster i think it is time in the boat Joe needs and we dont get enough of it! I now have 2 patches and the knot spacing between the 2 is about 30cm. I am still not happy with it but intend making a semi circlular chute entry approx 45*  elevated to help launch but more importantly retrieval. I have carbon but would rather use a kelvar mix. Does anyone have any going spare? I need about  50cm by 25cm. Swaps or buy???

[tim_unerman]

Kevlar won't help that much, it will just end up furry. I would go for using glass as this is far better at wear the Kevlar and can be filled when there is some. 

[Clive Everest]

I was about to try and make a spinnaker mouth for the new boat.
I have brought some 31mm silicone tube:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290742298928?var=590074415541&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
I will cover it with carbon braid and epoxy:
http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/carbon-fibre-reinforcement/braid/carbon-fibre-braided-sleeve-40mm.aspx
and form to shape with a ply jig.
it may be necessary to pack the silicone tube with sand to help stop it collapsing. It just about bends to the desired curves

I am hoping that when the epoxy has set I will be able to get the sand out and then pull out the silicone tube.
If I have to leave it in it will not be a significant weight

Any one tried any think like this before?
I believe that things like carbon bike bars (drops) and frames are moulded over silicon formers that they manage to pull out.

[Phil Alderson]

I did a chute mouth moulded around a bike inner tube and it worked out OK, I did a write up on the process I used.
http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/tech/new_chute 

I did the first layup with one layer of glass, so if it went wrong, there was not much waste. For the outer surface I have been painting the mouth with epoxy and graphite powder, seems to wear OK and feels low friction. It is also easy to repair, or recoat if you get a cut from the haliard

I have previously setup an auto trip on the haliard cleat, so as soon as the retreaval line is tight, the kite starts to come down. It defnatly helped on some of the drops.

[JimC]

Kevlar won't help that much, it will just end up furry.

Funnily enough my experience is that it doesn't go furry in wear situations like it does when you sand the laminate. I don't know why not, but that's how it seems to have worked out for me. I use it for wear surfaces on the canoe sliding seat setup and it just seems to polish up. I also used it on the wear points on Halo's last chute and don't recall it going furry.

I agree with the rest about bagging the kite, it is IME more effort than a really well set up chute, the fly in the ointment being getting that really good setup, and I've never managed one I thought was really good, so bear that in mind with what I say... My impression is that large radii are really helpful, as is avoiding bunching, both when coming down and when going up.  Sometimes a setup that goes in smoothly will bunch like crazy coming out again. I've usually moulded chute exits round styrofoam. I suggest trying graphite powder in the outer layer of the layup: not only should it be lower friction per se but it also takes a good polish.