Author Topic: Wing Masts  (Read 19523 times)

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Offline ross_burkin

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Wing Masts
« on: August 22, 2009, 05:29:08 AM »
Has anyone put any serious thought into making it work on a modern Cherub?

One alternative is a sleave luff main but this would be pretty impracticle given all the rigging it would have get round! You could have a  zip luff with stratigically placed, spreader avoiding holes.
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Offline Phil Alderson

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Re: Wing Masts
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 02:05:30 PM »
There was a rotating 12 foot skiff mast built by C-tech so they would be a place to start if you wanted info.

An alternative would be to build a rotating fairing onto the non rotating mast.
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Offline Stuberry

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Re: Wing Masts
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 02:51:33 PM »
Check out Ginge's article here. (And also the new C-tech website)

I don't think a luff sleave alone will help, because it's the round front of the most that causes turbulence over the first (apporx) 15cm off the luff. A better idea would be to build some sort of foam tapered front into the luff sleave.

Offline Neil C.

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Re: Wing Masts
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2009, 07:07:57 PM »
JimC is your man for this topic I believe. He's investigated the Bethwaite experiments with wing masts (all documented in "High Performance Sailing"), and has experience of a wing mast on one of his older Cherubs. As I understand it, there probably is a power advantage to be had from a well set-up rotating wing mast, but the problem is you need to do a whole lot of development work with masts and sails to get to the point of it being useful. My old catamaran sailing book suggests there is up to 35% greater lift to be had from a wingmast compared to a conventional mast, but I just don't believe that's true!

Offline Neil C.

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Re: Wing Masts
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2009, 07:25:53 PM »
I've just looked my cat book up again. What it actually says is (with my additions in italics):

A comparison of the efficiency of various rig profiles and leading edges (assuming equal sail areas and battened sails):

Round mast (like old Needlespar), non-rotating, with jib = 71%
Shaped mast (like tin Superspars etc.), non-rotating, with jib = 73%
Round mast, rotating, with or without jib (looks like the rotating Needlespar on my old Unicorn) = 78%
Shaped mast, rotating, with jib = 83%
Foresail alone (sail set on a stay with no mast) = 83%
Airfoil mast, width 30-40% of section length= 94%
Rigid airfoil with rigid flaps = 100%

Unfortunately it doesn't say where they got those figures from!

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Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Wing Masts
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 08:35:08 PM »
Has anyone put any serious thought into making it work on a modern Cherub?

One alternative is a sleave luff main but this would be pretty impracticle given all the rigging it would have get round! You could have a  zip luff with stratigically placed, spreader avoiding holes.

I put serious thought into pocket luff sails a while back. The issue is measurement, and getting a sail maker who is happy to do quite a lot of development work ( or you have to have deep pockets, pun intended ). Putting the pocket luff on a none rotating mast means the pocket needs to be made from flexible / elastic material with foam inserts. On a fully rotating mast it is just a world of pain to maintain control of the mast and keep the rotation on a conventional style mast.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 07:45:25 PM by daryl_wilkinson »

Offline JimC

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Re: Wing Masts
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 09:03:16 PM »
My (very limited!) understanding of what seems to be coming out of the latest CFD work is that pole masts are not nearly as bad for performance as more traditional theory, like the Catamaran book above, suggested, and that the margin between them and more sophisticated sections really isn't that great. Empirically I guess sailors knew this (subconsciously anyway) in that supposedly superior sections like Proctor Betas and Kappas and things never actually seemed significantly better than round tubes on the water, and those of us who played with wing masts never found ourselves rocketing to the front on a magic carpet either.

I'm also convinced that no-one apart from Bethwaite has really done the raw research adequately, and too many experiments on dinghies have been the pear shape fat end forward section that Bethwaite reckoned was rubbish. We should remember that those lasted on C Class Cats for about 18 months before being replaced by superior technology, so there is a second opinion on his evaluation. Bethwaite's sticks did seem to work, but they couldn't be mass produced and were barking heavy.

Inadequate theory gets folk into a lot of trouble - another one you'll see coming up on the Internet forums is of folks who gain the big idea that a mast in fromt of a sail is trouble, so they design rigs with the mast at the back, or off to one side, or a bipod or something and rig a boat with just a big jib. Naturally the result is always rubbish! That gets a good rating in the book too doesn't it. Still I should talk, I've made enough mistakes with inadequate theory I didn't understand properly in my time:-)

I still reckon there's unfinished business in wingmasts, although I'm less enthused than I was 5 years ago but the trouble is you probably need to devote two or three seasons of going slowly and buying new masts and sails every few months and recutting sails every few weeks. You've not only got to solve the basics of getting a solution that is aerodynamically superior in a wide range of conditions, but also work out a way getting enough gust response into the mast, and probably work out how to get twist into the mast as well. Then its got to be light and yet strong enough to cope with poor handling on and off the water. Short of Larry Ellison saying ******* this Americas Cup nonsense, I want to build a team to win a Cherub World Championships, I don't really know who could devote that much energy and resources... I guess as good a demonstration of my current opinion on these things is that although my Canoe would be allowed a wing mast I'm not looking at getting one, instead I'm concentrating on gluing bits on tubes for improved bend characterstics and gust response.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 09:05:38 PM by JimC »