UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: Banshee Ambulance on November 09, 2009, 01:54:42 PM
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Any news on this new design? I have noticed it has been mentioned a couple of times on the forum. How is it better/how does it differ from an E5?
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you beat me to it..... i am also personally and financially interested lol.
i dont want to go all out on building an E5 then have an E6 wonder-boat blowing all others out of the water now do i!
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you beat me to it..... i am also personally and financially interested lol.
i dont want to go all out on building an E5 then have an E6 wonder-boat blowing all others out of the water now do i!
I wouldn't worry about that. People blow others out of the water not hull shapes.
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depends if its a hover boat with no friction with the water........you never know ;)
i was just saying that it would be a bit annoying to launch a new boat just as the Mr croote launches a new boat that may be better suited to me and digby, etc...
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HOVER BOAT.
Well, with typical internet forum logic: 1) No one seems willing to say anything and most designs are pretty well documented. 2) The designer has been working on moths recently. 3) Aardvark say it will shake things up a bit.
ITS A FOILER!!!!!!!!!!!
This is also conclusive proof that; man never made it to the moon, 9/11 was a hoax and the Titanic never sank.
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John & rs405,
Instead of spending all winter in a fumey garage, get yourself a proven one ready to go and invest the time on the water!
http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/secondhand (http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/secondhand)
P
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peter, i already have a boat.
i would like to build either an e5 or e6 or any boat thats better than a dog too windward in chop as i believe that was a major factor at the nationals, especially day 2 or 3.
also, any offers for class members for ronin ;)
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I am not convinced by the usefullnes of the T-foil in pre 97 hulls, my feeling is that it stuffs the bow in to much and stops the boat pitching over the waves.
The post 97 hulls have a much finer entry angle which seems to be an ongoing trend in designs , they can slice the waves much better.
for details of the E6 why not PM Kevin and ask if he is ready to publish some pictures?
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anyone got kevins email?
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The E6 is off the drawing board (computer to be more accurate)
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Beats me that no-one's built another Bieker...
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The question is whether Ronin is the fastest thing afloat or Pete is just a sailling god who could beat us all no matter what he was in? And to answer your question the Bieker mould was destroyed.
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seems there has been a lot of destroying of moulds from good designers recently. E6 looks nice... if not quite similar to a 'Banshee'.
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The question is whether Ronin is the fastest thing afloat or Pete is just a sailling god who could beat us all no matter what he was in? And to answer your question the Bieker mould was destroyed.
So? Doesn't stop anyone building another. I liked the hull shape from the first time I saw the drawings, before it was built. Obviously boat speed is about 5% of the equation, but were I 20 years younger and building a boat that's the one I'd be going for.
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were I 20 years younger and building a boat that's the one I'd be going for.
The original is also for sale?
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seems there has been a lot of destroying of moulds from good designers recently. E6 looks nice... if not quite similar to a 'Banshee'.
It does look similar to a 'Banshee' doen't it. It is a lot more rounded in the forward sections. Looks like a well built plug too.
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Wow the E6 is very pointy. the bow might as well be cut from a sheet of low density foam and covered with 1 layer of carbon it's so thin. that would deal with the first foot of the waterline.
Good luck with the plug paul. If i had a day free I would offer to help but already committed this weekend.
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incredible looking paul :)
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seems there has been a lot of destroying of moulds from good designers recently. E6 looks nice... if not quite similar to a 'Banshee'.
It does look similar to a 'Banshee' doen't it. It is a lot more rounded in the forward sections. Looks like a well built plug too.
yes a finer entry and slightly more pronounced inverted forward sections with similar rounding up to the chines aft. A more extreme version of a Banshee. (The Banshee don't forget was designed to be a safer ship.) This is no unsurprising as David Lee and Kevin have / are / do swap ideas. It's not a criticism either, just an observation.
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Hi all
To end the speculation:
a) The E6 is designed optimised for lower speeds / lower windstrengths than the E6. It has more rocker, lower Cp, lower Ws
b) It is not a more extreme version or development of the Banshee: it has come about from evaluating scores of different hullforms, including those with step chines and non immersed chines. Cherub designs, within a given rule set, will coalesce over time , so they will inevitably look similar - look at the Bieker and Morrison 14s for example. It is probably closer to Alex Valling's Nuplex than the Banshee.
c) The differences in drags between any of the modern hulls will be very small, much smaller than the difference that can be made by setting the T foil at the correct angle, trimming the boat and sails correctly. Drag is mostly a function of length, weight and waterline beam and there's not a lot you can do about any of these!
d) This is really for John H - if you speak to Phil K, you will realise just how much putting a new boat on the water costs - and how many zillion man hours it takes. Whilst I'd love you to have an E5/6, my advice would be the same as Pete's - If you've got the cash, go buy Ronin and spend your time sailing - it will place you far further up the race track than building a new boat.
e) the frames are a conformal surface 9mm inside the hull; so the bow will look very skinny until skinned. That said, the E5 looked skinny compared to previous boats - it's just what you get used to looking at.
Cheers
Kevin
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Common Paul, lets see some top notch cabinet making going on here.
I'm putting my money on you stip planking this baby in Western Red with an epoxy glass sheath. Who knows, if you're careful you could pop off the female tool and may well be able to resurect the plug as a hull.
I heard the original strip planked 29er somewhere is somewhere in Oz (it would probably last longer than the plastic ones).
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I would agree with Kevin that it looks closer to Nuplex than Banshee and looks like a softer evolution of the E5, but I haven't seen the drawings to confirm or deny.
David
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d) This is really for John H - if you speak to Phil K, you will realise just how much putting a new boat on the water costs - and how many zillion man hours it takes. Whilst I'd love you to have an E5/6, my advice would be the same as Pete's - If you've got the cash, go buy Ronin and spend your time sailing - it will place you far further up the race track than building a new boat.
I really think as a class we should be more encouraging. We really need to be promoting home building and keep supporting those who are keen to design and build things as well as sailing. Or else we lose one of the core values of the class. At the same time though, we need to discourage people from making mistakes and starting something they can't finish. It is a tough balancing act.
There is a fantastic ammount of knoledge in the class, and, more importantly a fantistic group of people who are prepared to share it. But there will come a time where we will say "We used to build boats in sheds but its too difficult, takes too long and costs too much." And I don't want that to happen.
I will build a boat and it will take time, cost a lot of money and I will make mistakes along the way. But a man who never made a mistake never made anything. John H: If you know what you are getting into and are doing it to learn and to make and understand and know the costs etc. involved then go for it. But dont do it because you have just seen a shiny thing like Wills boat and said "I want one of those, that will win me races, How can I get one on the cheap?" That is not enough and you will not finish it. If you think that, take Kevins sensible advice and buy Ronin.
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Common Paul, lets see some top notch cabinet making going on here.
I'm putting my money on you stip planking this baby in Western Red with an epoxy glass sheath. Who knows, if you're careful you could pop off the female tool and may well be able to resurect the plug as a hull.
I heard the original strip planked 29er somewhere is somewhere in Oz (it would probably last longer than the plastic ones).
You would be 9mm under on each side at the chines for the measurement rules! You might get away with 14 style speed bumps though.
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Home building is good!
It is alive and well in the class
but like something else I can't quite think of,...
Oh yes! Comedy, it's all about the timming.
We are not saying don't build, just learn a little about How and What before you start.
Having said that, good luck if you want to build.
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You would be 9mm under on each side at the chines for the measurement rules! You might get away with 14 style speed bumps though.
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Not if you planked it with 9mm cedar and a couple of layer of glass. When you're done with the buck, turn it over, chop out the mdf sheath with something more exotic and fit frames. Near identical to Swift Solo build, it would be heavy but drop dead pretty.
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John, if you wish to go ahead and build a boat then go for it.
However can you do efficent repairs to boats without needing assistance from other people? personally i like the idea of building my own boat, but currently feel i've not got enough knowledge to do so, Doing repairs to boats like i am currently is helping me learn things for in the future if i so wish to build. mistakes to a new build could end up being costly.
I however recently have been considering making a 'scale model' cherub (30cm) so i can get the jist of how a home build goes without a huge cost, plus it gives me a learning experience aswell as something that can sit at home and i can be proud of at the end of it.
James
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Kevin, just to be clear. I'm not suggesting it is a direct iteration of Banshee, I'm sure it was created through your own endeavour... it was just that when I looked at it there were similarities I found echoed the work that David had done on the Banshee. Which obviously is an iteration of Nuplex. As you say hull shapes will and are converging over time.
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To comment on the home build front.
Sarah and I purposly bought a second hand boat first to see if we liked the boat and the class and to learn how to do modifications etc.
Saying that if you have some aptitude for diy, get some practice with the different techniques there is nothing that is beyond the normal persons skills.
Sometimes I asked people for advice and was always grateful for it. Sometimes I figured problems out for myself. But ignore advice at your perill. you will make mistakes so be prepared to have to do some re work. Importantly, thick three times, measure twice cut once.
I would suggest the first thing to do is to sit down and work out how you are going to put the boat together, hull deck, bulkhead configurations arrangement of racks, beams and strutts and do some drawings. From that work out the materials you need and the consumables. You will need some equipment. I would reccomend buying or loaning a vacume pump. Then having a sticky weekend at your place and get some class members and friends to get some of the complicated or large jobs done. You will learn a lot.
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guys,
thanks for the advice but i am still building a boat. i do realsie how many gazillion man hours it will take and am not just building it becaue it looks cool (even if it does). I am building it because i want to learn from it and be able to sail a boat i made. i know many of you dont think im experienced enough, but i do know a few people very experienced with carbon, foam, foil design and am pretty confident it will happen. The reason i would never but ronin is that i simply do not have the money in one sum (my cash flow is what will build the new boat, not what i have in the bank at this moment (thats going to a car)) me and digby are bsically working to the same philosophy as phil kirk and sarah.
thanks and i hope i havent insulted anyones opinions
john
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My first Cherub was one I built, starting with a shell from Andy P, I had no boat building experience, but plenty of fixing experience.
There were no other Cherubs or boat builders within a good few hundred miles of me. It was quite different construction from any other cherub of the time, and I did not see another cherub between starting the build and finishing it. I took over two years to build it working on my own, more money than I expected, and until I scraped together enough money to get a Carbon mast it was almost un-sailable.
Despite all the problems it was worth it. If what you want is a cheap way to the front of the fleet then a home build is not it, however if what you want is to build a boat, then building a boat is what you should do.
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thankyou phil, i think your story there pretty much ums up what i want to do....
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glad you are building... it makes sense of me sending you that jib car and track system. BTW don't worry about sending any cash for it ( as long as I don't see it on ebay next week :D ) I'm happy to help you out. Be pre-paired for this lot taking the piss out of the length time your build takes, if you are using monthly available funds, as it will take you while. Although I doubt you have any dependents requiring teenage lifestyle funding. :D So maybe you'll be quicker than me. :-[ good luck.
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thanktou daryl, i was just about to cll you to say its come. thanks for advice, im fine with advice just not people assuming i dont have a clue about something. i know perfectly well that i may make mistakes but i am prepared to deal with them, and will be building froma sound shell anyway.
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sorry if i sound slightly put out, im not really. please dont anyone take offence
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Sound way to start John.
Again starting from a shell takes a lot of hours and risk out of a build.
While a number of people commenting have built a boat themselves from various starting points I think we always under estimate the time it takes. I know that you are prepared for this. The eagerness to see another boat on the water and see how a project is progressing could be partly responsible for the time scale comments.
Do it right and do it once but don't do it to fast without thinking because you will build your self into corners and compromise the eventual craft.
I'm also happy to help.
My learning from experience is: that fancy faired beams take much longer to make than hollow carbon tubes.
If you have planned out what all the main components are going to look like and where they go make all the similar ones at the same time to benifit from using a familiar technique. Start with the least critical component.
Get everything level and check dimensions before gluing it all together.
Again good luck
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Some Centerboard shapes
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Interesteing, I forgot about that one. Shame we didnt think to get them same distance from camera.
I must remember to lift mine when we get overpowered, it is too easy to forget in the excitement. We forgot at the BM, it would have made those gusts a bit more forgiving.
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Or are they saying 'I've got this huge carbon/foam growth on my foot!' must make it difficult finding dinghy boots to get over that. :)
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Ok, so hoiw would a constant section foil with a small lifting foil at the bottom perform? You would effectively then be end plated at both top and bottom. Im talking reduced displacement foiling here.
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Common Paul, lets see some top notch cabinet making going on here.
I'm putting my money on you stip planking this baby in Western Red with an epoxy glass sheath. Who knows, if you're careful you could pop off the female tool and may well be able to resurect the plug as a hull.
I heard the original strip planked 29er somewhere is somewhere in Oz (it would probably last longer than the plastic ones).
Well it is strip planked but being MDF I give it about half an hour in water before it started dissolving! (anyone seen the papier mashy flying boat on Phineas and Ferb?) It also weighs about 200kg at the moment (about the same as a SMOD). Here is some pics just after finishing the planking. should have some better photos in a few days once it is faired.
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Looking good Paul.
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That is going to be one fine looking ship!
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Latest pics
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awesome looking paul
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This is one smooooooth lookin' plug. Excellent craftsmanship Mr Croote.
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Kevin,
Can you clarify you first comment as you reference the E6 twice. Is the E6 designed for lower wind speeds than the E5 or the other way round?
Andy
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Kevin,
Can you clarify you first comment as you reference the E6 twice. Is the E6 designed for lower wind speeds than the E5 or the other way round?
Andy
Yes, a typo. The E6 has been optimised for lower hull speeds than the E5. That said, it is important to realise that the main factors influencing the drag of a hull are its length, weight, waterline beam. There's not a lot you can do with these in the Cherub, so the performance differences between the E5 and E6 are likely to be small. Crew weight, for example, would have a much bigger impact than the differences in hull shapes - a lightweight crew in an E5 would still outperform a heavier crew in an E6 in light winds. Rig set up, sail trim and sailing skills are, as ever, of paramount importance.
Design is all about compromise - if you improve one area of performance, you'll almost certainly degrade another.
Hope this helps.
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a lightweight crew in an E5 would still outperform a heavier crew in an E6 in light winds.
Phew!
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Phil, you will have to stop eating those coco pops!
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Nooooooooooo! :(
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Latest pics, looks very small along side Atum!
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I like the all in one jib track/rack bar setup. (if that is what it is?) How much freeboard does it have relative to the E5/Slug?
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Looking good.
Nice Open 60 inspired gunwales, yet another element that was meant to be on my boat but didn't make it. So I'm pleased someone has gone down that route. I saw an i14 at the dinghy show that had gone that route too.
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10cm lower at the bow and 2.5cm higher at the stern. The higher chine and flange makes it look less than it is. The flange will be much smaller on the finished hull.
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(http://teamorigin.com/images/sized/gallery/Roman__20100316_6674_LR-600x338.jpg)
Gunwhales like this?
That's not what the E6 has - those are external flanges you can see. See prev page.
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I love the bridge deck. You could do something similar at the back and pin the gantry off it too. I also see that you have the stanchions ready in the background. ;)
The keel boat inspired roll gunnels would be quite good so long as the spray doesn't sweep your feet off the gunnel. Would also create more space for getting back in between the hull and the racks. Does mean that the spare mainsheet would go over the side more easily though. lots of plusses and minuses.
Looks like it's cookie's time to get busy and start making boats now.
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Looking vey good Paul, as you say Phil it's nearly time for Mr Cook to get busy. Then us to get vey busy!
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I love the bridge deck. You could do something similar at the back and pin the gantry off it too. I also see that you have the stanchions ready in the background. ;)
The keel boat inspired roll gunnels would be quite good so long as the spray doesn't sweep your feet off the gunnel. Would also create more space for getting back in between the hull and the racks. Does mean that the spare mainsheet would go over the side more easily though. lots of plusses and minuses.
Looks like it's cookie's time to get busy and start making boats now.
I'd better get my eye sight checked! The roll gunnels as well as easing entry have a plus when you taz it around the front and hit them. A bigger area to disperse the impact on your arse / ribs / head etc..... Ben broke FLC's gunwale doing that, but he never seemed to be able to stay attached when I was driving?! :-)
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Pictures of completed deck plug, It seems to be crying out to have fittings/racks stuck on and taken out for a blast, shame
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That is a seriously nice looking bit of work.
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that is a true piece of craftsmanship
edit: actually its incredible
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That is a very nice looking plug and is fantastic craftsmanship. Paul, Kevin and Aarvark look like they are onto a winner here! Is this a second shot at a womens olympic skiff/production/one design Cherub? I only ask because I am guessing the team behind it are looking at serious production volumes given the substantial time, skill and money investment in tooling.
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Attention to detail is excellent. I really like the little upstands on the gunwale for cleat mounting, and also the areas to increase bonding surface for the mast deck.
It's the really nice thing about a female mould. Every minute spent sorting this mould out saves hours later when making boats out the moulds. Especially if there are going to be a fair few boats out of it.
Excellent work Paul.
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Latest update. . .
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Cool Stuff,
Another Cherub is born!
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pics of 1st hull shell
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Ah the beauty of a freshly female moulded boat!
Droooooooool :o
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That is superb!
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It would be criminal to paint it!
Just goes to show how good the plug and hence the mould was ;)
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Maybe we'll just clear coate it after all!
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maybe some flames on the bow?!
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:O
drrroooollll also
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A few people asked me at WYC where the deck eyes came from that I have used to lead lines into my wing bars, well I found them here .... http://www.theyachtshop.co.uk/items/deck-fittings/dinghy-fittings/4-angle-deck-bushes-d-7mm-p16683-detail.htm
Plastimo 16683 - thats all I can find on the packaging
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Pictures daryl? I dont quite get where these are located
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What about clear coating a section, then adding vynl lettering when painting the boat, remove the letters, and you have the name on the side in carbon
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wow, awesome idea
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This is how the name is done on Subtle Knife.