UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: Phil Alderson on November 16, 2017, 09:18:07 PM
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At the Nationals we decided that we had taken Pocket Rocket about as far as we could, and we fancied a new challenge. I liked the look of A&E and thaught that Clive's inovative build method would allow for a quick build. So after talking to Clive and him offering me the use of his mould I decided to order all the bits and build a new boat. Many thanks to Clive for the use of the mould and for letting me build his design.
I ordered the prelaminated, and waterjet cut panels from Fibre Fusion (https://www.fibrefusion.com/ (https://www.fibrefusion.com/)) which will make up the majority of the boat, and also some plain foam panels which fit on the mould to make the hull.
I started the build with a trip to the south coast to pick up the mould, and had also aranged to do the initial layup of the hull with Nick's help at his place. Doing a big laminating job is hard on your own, so some extra help and advice was much apreciated.
Some photos below of the mould prep and first layer of Carbon.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/va2bvib31mkizaz/20171111_231436.jpg?dl=0)
I was originally planning to do both layers of skin over the weekend however as we finished laminating the first bit at 4am the slow cure resin was still green in the morning. So we would have needed to wait most of the day before we could do any more.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/hbrcy6fc43qkk92/20171112_021725.jpg?dl=0)
Decided instead to let it cure on the road and headed back up the road with the hull all wrapped up. The last picture is it all wrapped up in it's new home for the rest of the build.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/flkwx3vzpqcrp05/20171113_093205.jpg?dl=0)
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I see the cling film survived the trip.
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Hi Nick,
The cling film was a good call for protecting it on the way up the road. One end came slightly loose but was tucked away and did not move.
Since I got back I have been sorting the areas where the foam did not stick, most of them are on the side panels where I think they dropped down onto the flange at some point between sticking and pulling the bag down.
I have also been fairing the foam to get a smooth shape, I started with 80 grid which was not making much impact on the foam, then got some 40 grid which is doing the job nicely.
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Looking good!
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I have mostly been working on fairing the hull, you start with a bumpy hull where each of the sections of foam fit against each other;
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/y044jbehrm9j355/20171118_164601.jpg?dl=0)
Then after about 45 minutes with a long board you end up with a pile of dust and a smooth hull
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/pmczmhlxkmp3ts0/20171118_173539.jpg?dl=0)
I have the bottom of the hull done now, I still have a bit more to do on the sides, and around the bow where I need to measure carefully to make sure that there is enough tolerance in the length and the bow profile to fit the rules once the outer skin is added.
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The waterjet panels have arrived, they look great, the cuts are so clean and they look spot on for shape. I haven't had a chance to lay everything out, but setup the spine and bulkheads.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/mgrbty1zudsqldz/20171121_210159.jpg?dl=0)
They also included some christmas decorations which was a nice supprise.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/0d6usks7n5wdh27/20171124_214829.jpg?dl=0)
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Looking good Phil. That's impressive progress in just a couple of weeks.
Are you planning solid wings or racks? I think you might have told me already but I can't remember!
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Chears Neil, I need to keep the momentum up to get it done this winter, or it will just drag out and never get finished.
I am going for solid wings, should give more places to put my feet when stumbling around the boat.
There has been a bit more progress, I got the outer skin on last weekend,
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/db6eo50dfqah1n1/20171128_205803.jpg?dl=0)
Then yesterday got it off the mould.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/34b96fbnp2k5k5d/20171130_110242.jpg?dl=0)
I have trimmed the outer flange a bit and started fettling the frames. They are really close and don't need much work, except for the fwd spine section with is not quite right around the snout, but a bit of sanding should sort that. There are also a few areas where the inner skin has not bonded to the outer, which will need a bit of repair.
Phil
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"I need to keep the momentum up to get it done this winter,"
Should be easier in Scotland.
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Looks great.
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glad it came off ok.
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It was not too bad to get off, I baught some wedges from (https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/category/wedges (https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/category/wedges)). Two yellow ones and one black in the smallest size, and three was very useful as you could work along the length. The black one was the most useful as it was soft enough to get around the corner of the flange. I think that having a larger one would be be useful. In the end I made up a long wooden wedge that went in at the back and it just came off.
I have now got the transom aft part of the spine and one bulkhead in, and also have repaired all the delamination at the back. It was worse at the back, so I think the first batch of resin we put on at the back must have gone off too much by the time we got the foam on.
I am going to build a centerboard next so I can do the case.
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"I need to keep the momentum up to get it done this winter,"
Should be easier in Scotland.
Good point, I would not like to try and finish a job in the Summer
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I have made quite a bit of progress since the last update.
I have made a centerboard I got the foam core for my centreboard CNC routed to shape. It was done in two halves with a layer of carbon on the flat side to help stabilise it.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/6etdcabkdh63zqq/20171209_111143.jpg?dl=0)
I glued the two halves together in a vac bag to give consistent clamping pressure, with the bag hung up and weighted to hold the board straight while curing. I then laminated the outside skin again trying to keep everything straight. I have two centreboards planned one long and one short. The first picture shows the long one, before any laminating, and the second shows the short board complete with some padding around it ready to make the case.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/hvt0xup5715nmkq/20171223_120735.jpg?dl=0)
I have fitted most of the bulkheads and put wooden strips along the top to help spread the contact area for gluing, and along the spine to support the deck panels during gluing. I will get the last bulkhead in once I have installed the centreboard case.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/24758vp4za32yw2/20171231_113816.jpg?dl=0)
I made up the king post from an old bit of RS600 mast, which I have reinforced with some additional uni’s along the unsupported area and some biax around what will be the top to help reinforce the mast step area. It is a bit long and dry fitted at the moment together with the fwd. support strut to make it easier to pull in and out to adjust the holes in the deck panels to get a good fit. The last photo shows the front and rear deck panels jointed together and roughly in position.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/9x51kuu96raqxnc/20171231_214327.jpg?dl=0)
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Looking great Phil!
I best get working on Madge, at this rate you will have built an entire new boat in the time Ive repaired Madge!
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Looking great Phil!
I best get working on Madge, at this rate you will have built an entire new boat in the time Ive repaired Madge!
It is a bit eisier getting motivation to go out to a cold garage for a new build than for repairs.
I now have the king post and fwd support strut laminated in place, loads of 45's to spread the loads out into the structure.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/40j3pgoobn97e11/20180107_132115.jpg?dl=0)
I then flipped the boat over and marked out the bottom for cutting out the centerboard case.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/6pw2z3uf64dfz7o/20180107_143230.jpg?dl=0)
I used a laser level to mark the centerline, and also later to get the hull level and the centerboard vertical.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/8njw2eqfxhfy38l/20180109_201835.jpg?dl=0)
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Nice use of laser!
What a machine!
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Nice use of laser!
What a machine!
I think it helped quite a bit, a string line works OK for the centerline but it is easy for it to get knocked and move a bit out of alignment. For leveling the horizontal beam of the laser was also pretty good. I backed it up with a spirit level but I could move quite a bit on the laser and not notice much change on the spirit level.
The centerboard bulkhead was not the right size in the CAD file, Clive had warned me about it, and I had done some measuring on the computer and thaught I hade made a version the correct shape but it did not fit. So using some spare carbon sheet and some cardboard assisted design I cut out some new bulkheads to the right shape.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/q9l8a8n5qinusr2/20180114_144003.jpg?dl=0)
With a bit of fiddling I got them to fit. I left a couple of mm gap between the bulkhead and the cb case when filleting to make sure that they did not distort the case, and also fitted them with the board in place.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ysc2sf1pk0nla76/20180119_102457.jpg?dl=0)
Then it was time to say goodby to the insides and fit the decks
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/yq51tzmyx7attgt/20180121_212159.jpg?dl=0)
There were a lot of clamps and weights involved, but no photos of the process.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/n77uoww8uz1b8v6/20180121_212134.jpg?dl=0)
With the decks in and taped on the centerline it was time to start thinking about something else, so I made a quick and dirty jig for the jib track support, which will be the next thing to build, but probably won't get fitted till I have put the outer flair/wing sections in.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/yb83hqpl17chsli/20180121_212219.jpg?dl=0)
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Looking great Phil. I'm particularly impressed that you're managing to build this boat in a garage in Scotland in January! Do you have heating?
I only have one criticism. What's with the sugar-free can of coke in the bin?? Surely it should be full-fat Irn Bru? ;)
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Looking great Phil. I'm particularly impressed that you're managing to build this boat in a garage in Scotland in January! Do you have heating?
I only have one criticism. What's with the sugar-free can of coke in the bin?? Surely it should be Tennents Super? ;)
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Neil,
Nice spot, keep the special for when I finish.
I have put some insulation in the roof of the garage, and also around the doors. I have a couple of heaters but generally it is quite cold. I keep the resin inside till it is needed, then once laminated I make a tent with various bits of insulation and use the fan heater for local heating. I will take a picture next time I am out.
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The Jig for the jib track worked OK it held together while I laminated it up. I have got the track off and it looks reasonable. Not bad for a couple of bits of wood, some parcel tape, filleting wax and some clamps.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/po1n9e903hnk15a/20180123_201654.jpg?dl=0)
I used just about every clamp in the box to hold the front sections of the hull flairs in place while I glued them in place
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/280cumj0i5benqd/20180124_221143.jpg?dl=0)
The photo above does not really show the whole process, in a garage in Scotland in winter it is slightly more complicated.
First keep the resin warm in a box next to a radiator and only bring it out ready to mix.
For taping the seams on the fwd flairs I wet out where the tapes would go, then put the cloth on. I spread some resin over the cloth then went over it with the hot air gun to reduce the viscosity to help the resin soak into the cloth. Put the peel ply down and went over it again with the hot air gun to get everything wetted out evenly, and top up any dry areas.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/wv7bpqdnv378rrf/20180126_112254.jpg?dl=0)
Then make a tent and setup the fan heater to get some local heat.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/6xfjd6czd8wgkpw/20180126_112633.jpg?dl=0)
(I did not turn the boat upside down, but the phone seems to mess the orientation quite a bit.)
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I got started on the rear section of the outer wings by using a circular saw to cut out one layer of carbon and the foam. This will let me fold down the outer edge of the wing.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/mcm5m6lr65n6knp/20180202_101542.jpg?dl=0)
I then used lots of clamps and weights to hold the wings in place while I glued them in.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/oqwmrwikalywcff/20180203_152042.jpg?dl=0)
It is now a mostly boat shaped object, but there is still a lot to do.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/38oov743rewhxhl/20180204_193921.jpg?dl=0)
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Just as a bit of a sanity check how much usable jib track length is needed?
I am also fitting the tubes from the king post out to the shroud points. I could just do it with lots of grinding and fitting, but it is tricky and timeconsuming, does anyone have any good tips for marking out the cut lines. I have the inboard ends knotched using a template but the outboards are tricky.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/m8vmitvtfkl0mgg/20180204_210322.jpg?dl=0)
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looking great Phil.
Our jib track went to the gunwale.
we had barber haulers lead to the opposite sides that Alex could grab to back the jib when i cocked up a tack.
90% of the time we had the barbers let right off giving a much wider jib sheeting angle than most boats.
Regarding the fitting of the compression strut make sure that the centre line of the strut meets the intersection of the wing panel and the shroud.
we made the top edge flush with the gunwale, slightly lower.
This puts a bending moment on the strut and we broke one the second time we rigged. It did not help that they only had 1.2mm of carbon.
regarding the fit you can measure the angle between the wing and the tube.
from this you can work out how much longer the top edge to the bottom.
If you wrap a piece of paper around the tube the cut line will be a sine wave whose peak to peak is the same as the difference in lengths and whose period is the circumference of the tube.
Plot the sine wave wrap the plot around the tube and cut with a jig saw.
I snap the jig saw blades so the fit in the tube.
You could do a test run on a piece of plastic drain pipe.
Clive
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Chears Clive
I just went for steady cutting by eye as the interface with the front tubes is a compound angle and I did not think I could measure both angles and be sure they were exact enough for cutting. It took a while but I got a decent fit in the end. The compression struts are 2.5mm thick, and I was looking at some U bolts that can straddle the tube so I can mount the shroud points slightly more inboard and reduce the bending moment. The alternative would be mounting the U bolt through and in line with the compression strut which would again reduce the bending moment.
I have also made up the kick bars, I used a circular saw to cut a series of grooves in the foam. I went for the series of grooves as I wanted a larger radius for the bend so the top was not quite so sharp as the ones on A&E.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/l82hdocxf3rrlju/20180215_210603.jpg?dl=0)
Then it was bent to shape and clamped before filling and laminating the inside joint. I had an issue with one of them as one of the clamps cam off while it was curing, so I had to grind the filler back out, rebend and reclamp one of the sections.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/p3sx1sh2umarbn0/20180216_195331.jpg?dl=0)
For cutting the back tubes I used some offcuts to setup a jig that held the tube, and had a straight edge at the correct angle, then ran along with a circular saw, and gott a pretty good cut. They are about ready to fillet in place.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/7c78nierh8mywnh/20180218_183130.jpg?dl=0)
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Very impressive Phil! Should be making them to order! haha
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Have been too busy building to do much updating, although the cold weather has slowed things down a bit.
I got the ends of the wing bars folded down to make the gunwhales.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/5077afwl2ocbj63/20180311_210826.jpg?dl=0)
I then flipped the boat over to laminate the underside of the gunwhales, and also to tape all the seams where the outer wings join to the hull. I also added some unis on the underside of the wings to take the loads from the shrouds, and also at the back where the rear support arms are to stiffen them up.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ggvqom11k3fvbj9/20180318_142331.jpg?dl=0)
I made up some rings for the spinniker pole support, and the front one will also be the forestay support. I have fitted them but did not manage to photograph the process which involved clamping the extended pole into the boat with the end sticking out the door.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/3y05syjkb3o19ff/20180314_163024.jpg?dl=0)
I have also been thinking about attaching some fittings, so I made up some carbon in a right angle strip I will then cut in half and glue together to make a T shape. This can be bonded to the deck to make an upright hard point that a block could be tied to.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/8qidokxx6km2x67/20180314_163049.jpg?dl=0)
I have also made the trolly cradle but not yet made it into a trolly, again no photos of that bit.
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Looking great Phil.
I am always amazed at how useful the garage doors become as mobile supports :-)
This weekend I start digging the foundations for the shipping container to land on at ours. I fear we are about 12 months behind you on our build.
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Good to hear you are thinking of building again, although I expect you will be struggling to keep your workshop cool, rather than warm.
Starting to get nearer the end of adding big bits to the boat. The bow area is mostly done with the pole supports in, and the spinnaker chute added. I need to add the forestay fitting, and do a bit more shaping to get everything nice and smooth.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/rsiiapgoq2hqb9s/20180411_204005.jpg?dl=0)
At the other end the first part of the gantry mechanism is going in, it has taken a bit of time to get to this stage, as there are a lot of individual components that needed to be made up and then assembled.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/zigsefrshyds9ma/20180411_204033.jpg?dl=0)
Once I get the support arms on that will be the last of the structural components to be built, and I can start on the hard points for fittings, and then fairing and painting.
On the painting side do people have an idea of how much paint would be needed to spray the hull?
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Hi Phil,
Looks good, could you share how you made that spinnaker snout and what the dimensions are?
Thanks!
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For the chute I glued together two rectangles approx 20cm wide of 8mm foam into a slightly flattened arc that stretched across the boat. Loads of clamps were used as normal. Once it was set I cut the fwd section into a curve. The pic below shows some of the foam that I cut out.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/93l53sk8vbex3ft/20180412_201923.jpg?dl=0)
After that I bonded it to the hull, added some bits of filler to help round out some areas sanded it into a smooth shape before covering with Carbon. I tried to keep all the corners with wide radius where the kite is likely to contact on drops.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/auuioxwhlp0kz9j/20180412_201734.jpg?dl=0)
The hull is about 30cm wide where the hoop is, and the hoop is about 20cm above the deck.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1p8ru0wv8wp0h73/20180412_201716.jpg?dl=0)
I also bonded some tube to the gunwale to increase the radius to make it eisier to get back in after a trawl.
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I have been working hard on the boat, and just have not been sitting down infront of a computer. Mostly I have been wearing out loads of sandpaper, and making big piles of dust. It does not make for a very photogenic boat.
(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/5ws21oob3rpxw1m/20180507_142234.jpg?dl=0)
However I have started putting together some shiny things to get away from the dust
(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/meehee0t39z4zeu/20180425_145934.jpg?dl=0)
(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/9wfzevkzmb3mv0x/20180512_172525.jpg?dl=0)
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The boat is now looking quite shiny, it is now painted,
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/dn0n1pug25anz6z/20180512_172607.jpg?dl=0)
Some fittings are going on,
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/es77xiim76fjue8/20180517_000135.jpg?dl=0)
I am now doing alot of splicing and tying, and hoping that all the hard points I glued on are in the right places.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/a1piwdghlupjpp5/20180528_163307_Richtone%28HDR%29.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/cfdlc0ead43246t/20180528_163327_Richtone%28HDR%29.jpg?dl=0)
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Fantastic.
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Looks like a total weapon. Fantastic!
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Looking great Phil!
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Thanks, I am getting quite excited about getting on the water I have picked up the rig so it is getting closer.
Phil
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Saw that when i was at PinBax. I now have mast envy!
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On Sunday Afternoon I got Zero Gravitas complete enough to go sailing ;D ;D
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/wpzzsenzc6aa9gx/IMG_0590.JPG?dl=0)
There was not much wind, it got up enough to single wire, but that was probably enough for a first sail. Learned loads, and have a bunch of little tweaks to do but a very successful first sail. The mast is very nice P&B did a great job of finishing it off the sails fit well and look great.
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very nice.
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Woohoo! Congratulations Phil and Carol. Looks brilliant.
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Well done guys
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Phil, couple of questions for you.
What layup did you use for your daggerboards?
I hope to be rescuing some moulds, just looking for a starting point really.
Also the flip flop cleat set up you have on the top of the stump; a+e has the jib here. You have two cleats, what controls do you have here?
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Looks very nice, Good job!
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Phil, couple of questions for you.
What layup did you use for your daggerboards?
I hope to be rescuing some moulds, just looking for a starting point really.
Also the flip flop cleat set up you have on the top of the stump; a+e has the jib here. You have two cleats, what controls do you have here?
I have the jib sheet and kicker on a loop running to the flip flop. The downhaul and t-foil are lead to each side around the middle.
For the CB I have only made the smaller one so far, and I think the layup was
+- 45 woven 200g top 600mm or so
2* Uni 200g strip down full length approx 100mm width
uni 200g full length and full width
200g Uni approx top 500mm
+-45 woven full length
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Thanks for that Phil.
As ever a great help!