UK-Cherub Forum

Cherub Chat => Introduction to Cherubs => Topic started by: HighwaytoHelm on April 25, 2015, 09:45:50 AM

Title: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 25, 2015, 09:45:50 AM
So after getting the cherub big after sailing born slippy at the nationals, I have finally gotten my arse in gear and bought a boat. I'm sure many of you are familiar with strangely brown. She's a 97 boat and she'll probably stay that way for the time being. At the moment I just want to learn tame the beast. I'll be sailing her out of tata steel sailing club in port talbot, any pics or stories would be greatly appreciated!!

I haven't sailed her as yet, a bike meets pothole leading to a face meets road incident on the way to the club this morning put a an end to that plan! Hoping to get put either Wednesday or next weekend!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: JP233 on April 25, 2015, 10:17:52 AM
Well done. Told you you would stay!
Was searching for this picture last night.
http://www.uk-cherub.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1840.0;attach=2883
Tell me it's still got the board!

Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 25, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
Unfortunately not (I could probably use the stability) it's funny the boat looks incredibly different now to 22 years ago!!!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 06:28:19 PM
Tell me it's still got the board!

I think the enormous white thing on the left side of the cockpit is the bottom panel of the mainsail. You can just about see the rather smaller daggerboard peeping out underneath.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
Some Strangely photos from when she was quite new.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 06:41:36 PM
More:
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 06:46:43 PM
And more:
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 06:49:28 PM
And some more:
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 26, 2015, 06:49:33 PM
Tell me it's still got the board!
I think the enormous white thing on the left side of the cockpit is the bottom panel of the mainsail. You can just about see the rather smaller daggerboard peeping out underneath.

I think your right! I always thought that was a board! Thanks for the photos, after 420 sailing and uni fireflys (which have more leaks than the US government) a cherub feels soooo light!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 06:50:28 PM
Some more up to date photos on here. Sail no. 2651, from about 4th row down.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=cherub%20sail
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 26, 2015, 07:18:51 PM
Thank you so much for all the photos Neil! Its good to see the evolution of Strangely to where she is now! I can't wait to get out on the boat now, videos will be made!!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Neil C. on April 26, 2015, 07:21:51 PM
No problemo. Hope you enjoy it. Just remember, swimming is good for you.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: JP233 on April 26, 2015, 07:25:32 PM
Ruining my fun Neil!

Mike, how about a current photo of strangely?
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 26, 2015, 11:20:47 PM
Sorry, this is the only photo I have at the moment, I'll have more on Wednesday. https://www.dropbox.com/sc/a2z4eolg971at84/AABR4gAbhJzZgtf7NF2bTqMza (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/a2z4eolg971at84/AABR4gAbhJzZgtf7NF2bTqMza)
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 29, 2015, 04:32:53 PM
Went out today in 20 knots. I'd forgotten what am absolute riot these boats are!!!! Apart from rigging the kite wrong, snapping some shock cord, pulling the kite retrieval block out the deck, and going for a swim hitting the shrouds and popping the shrouds out the spreaders. But learning curve started!!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: JP233 on April 29, 2015, 05:18:41 PM
*insert pun about dogs off chains here*

In all seriousness do I need to send you a gopro?
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Tim Noyce on April 29, 2015, 08:34:44 PM
I can assure you that the previous owners used this boat properly so it is tried and tested kit. It will break you before you break it!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Simon T on April 29, 2015, 08:59:19 PM
The shrouds shouldn't come out of the spreaders Mike, that would suggest you need more rig tension? The main shrouds should be like piano wires when tensioned properly. If your struggling to get the tension on the main shrouds, those dyneema d2s may be set a little too tight. They are only a tuning aid the rig doesn't need them massively. It does however need the shrouds in the spreaders! There is wood under that kite retrieval block so should be easy to fix. If the kite won't hoist or drop it is best not to force the issue through the fittings and sort the jam out another way. If i remember rightly the retriever needs a big loop in the bowline going through the top kite patch to stop it bunching up and to shorten the retriever so it can't go under the bow.

Good to hear you got her out today! Would have been fun i'm sure she loves 20 kts and flat water
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on April 30, 2015, 09:32:53 AM
Thanks for the offer Jamie, I want to find my feet a little bit before putting on my action cam!

Simon with the kite I got it in slightly the wrong order, so the pole didn't come out. Definitely more rig tension, we got on as much as we could, but it obviously needs more! Hoping to get out again at the weekend, maybe both days! ;D

P.s. I'm still grinning from ear to ear!!!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 05, 2015, 08:01:02 PM
Couple of really basic questions,

What should the forestay and shroud tension read on a loos gauge?

my smaller mainsail doesn't have a cap at the top to keep the sail up, do I source another one bearing in mind the sail doesn't reach the top of the mast? or is there another way to keep the sail up?
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Tim Noyce on May 06, 2015, 07:23:50 AM
On my previous boats I have normally run 34 on the shrouds from memory. How do you get the tension on? Is it the classic lightweight welsh method of having 2 eyes in the ends of your wire, a piece of dyneema, and then just pulling it on till the eyes meet? When you achieve that, then you have got the tension right!

Under normal, powered up circumstances, I would suggest that a LOT of tension is the way to go. Maybe ease it off a bit when it is really light. All the hulls and rigs are different, so there is no such thing as 'normal'.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Clive Everest on May 06, 2015, 08:06:28 AM
On A+E we run 130kg on the forestay.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Born Slippy on May 06, 2015, 09:19:02 AM
Couple of really basic questions,

What should the forestay and shroud tension read on a loos gauge?

my smaller mainsail doesn't have a cap at the top to keep the sail up, do I source another one bearing in mind the sail doesn't reach the top of the mast? or is there another way to keep the sail up?

Depending on the guage - between 30 and 36. Should make a noise like a double bass when twanged.

All BGM's boats have a loop of dyneema ove the mast top. This hooks in and a main sliding down is about the only failure I have not suffered
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 06, 2015, 12:39:25 PM
At the moment there is a strop in the top of the jib, IIRC it's a 6:1 and Simon told me to just pull on as much as possible. The big main has a sort of cap made out of webbing. But sailing with the big one we were really overpowered sailing single wire. We're planning to sail the boat single wire for the time being so the smaller sail would be preferable
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Born Slippy on May 06, 2015, 05:29:05 PM
On BS we have a similar strop. Two main points:
1) Make sure there is no "dead end" ie make the loops of rope off against each other. Otherwise the tied end has no tension in it and the rig goes floppy fairly quickly.

2) Use a handle/bit of wood/hammer  to  wrap the rope around and allow you to get real tension on the rope
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Simon T on May 08, 2015, 05:03:42 PM
There is an eye to tie off the smaller mainsail that pokes out of the front of the mast where the extension for the bigger mainsail begins you just need some rope! The smaller mainsail is still really powerful though if its decent breeze, it is cut quite full and we used to twin wire with that smaller mainsail no problem at all! Sadly at 25 years old it is pretty delicate these days hence the much better condition newer mainsail. The advice you have been given on rig tension for the shrouds sounds about right to me, you certainly shouldn't sail it with any less than 200kgs of tension on the shrouds. We never had a Loos guage at the time we just used to pull on as much as we could. As Roland has said using some kind of steel bar to wrap the rope around certainly helps with leverage to pull it through as both of you can get a hold on it.  :)
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 08, 2015, 08:15:26 PM
Awesome, thanks simon, now you've mentioned it I remember seeing that loop. I'll male sure to try to put more rig tension on.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 21, 2015, 08:28:10 AM
Went for a second sail yesterday 15 knots and rather gusty. Wednesday club racing was interesting, they managed to set a course which meant we could only use the kite in one leg. 

Things we learnt:
1. We had more rig tension but still not enough I think.
2. The boat needs a kite sock (I have one just haven't fitted it)
3. I am slow at getting on the wire and if I rush have a habit of missing the ring.
4. With the kite up the boat becomes a rocket ship.

Upwind we found we were really struggling to point compared to the other boats. Is there anything that would be causing this?
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: dave_ching on May 21, 2015, 08:34:50 AM
No need to rush on to the wire. Just get through a tack and only sheet in when your ready.
What are you trying to point as high as?
Cherubs are only 12' and are best sailed for speed rather than pointing.
The rig tension will help though, saggy isn't a good look.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 21, 2015, 08:45:27 AM
I haven't trapezed on a monohull that much. So I think it will come with practice. We were as fast as a 4k but pointing ten degrees lower.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: dave_ching on May 21, 2015, 08:53:03 AM
you bought the boat from some good sailors so if you can find their setting you will not be far off.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Tim Noyce on May 21, 2015, 09:16:10 AM
Handicap sailing a Cherub can be frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding. Just keep plugging away at it, and then ONE DAY, you will have the right wind and the right course and you will do very well indeed! The rest of the time, it is a case of 'what could have been'.

We have a 97 Rules Bistro which over time we managed to tune to the point where it would actually point rather well, perhaps at the sacrifice of speed. This was essential for racing against other non cherubs as otherwise you would spend the whole day sailing in everyones dirty air... which is not fast. We have our rig raked less than some, and also, really work upwind to make as much height as possible, making decisions with every gust whether to head up to gain height, or foot off to make the most of the speed depending on who or what was around us at the time.

Another place where you can win or lose a lot, is at the top mark. Depending on what other boats are around you makes a big difference as to whether you keep high at the mark to get the kite up, or soak down low, to then head up and build the apparent wind. As you have probably already realised, hooking into a decent gust with the kite up really shoves a rocket up the arse of the little boat. So look around and try and pick the best option to avoid the amount of time NOT flat out planing. We would quite often soak down as low as possible to give ourselves a bit of space from the boats above us, and then by the time we were hooked into a gust you could normally go through and out from underneath the other plodders downwind. (if windy this is risky though, as you might find that you then struggle to point up high enough to make the mark without ragging the kite!)

As with all sailing, the single most important place to get it right is the start. If you can get out and clear on the first beat, and keep as many of the high pointing plodders behind you, then it will give you many more options. Get around the top mark and get the power down and you should then be clear of the others for a while. Get it wrong and you spend the first beat mucking about going the long way around lasers and RS things, then you are compromised on the downwind... and then you are down the pan.

If you can master sailing the boat in a handicap race, then you will be surprised by how well you can do against other Cherubs. Bottom line, keep the boat moving at all times... but don't lose sight of the fact that you need to keep it moving in the right direction too!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 21, 2015, 12:05:20 PM
Yeah we ballsed up the start. I was re-tying the kite sheets which I'd initially done wrong. Then missed the trapeze ring and went for a quick swim. So upwind it was just dirty air. I think we just need time in the boat now...

Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Tim Noyce on May 21, 2015, 12:34:19 PM
The Cherub is one of those boats where if it goes wrong, it generally goes wrong really quickly and you get really wet. Best to learn from your mistakes and do some pre sail checks to make sure you have done all that stuff right. Are the kite sheets right? are the bow fittings taped up? is the bungee around the top of the shrouds and jib in place? did I do a poo before getting changed into my wetsuit? ... all the important stuff. Once you have all of this stuff sorted, and can eliminate the number of capsizes due to equipment problems, then you will really start making progress. I spent the first few years not realising this stuff was important, and spent a lot of time swimming, or trying to fix things when out on the water (or worse... after racing when you should be in the bar).

Racing is key. You can only learn so much from hooning about (despite it being pretty fun), but the corners and the boat on boat stuff is the stuff which needs practising.
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: HighwaytoHelm on May 21, 2015, 12:41:31 PM
Yeah, we were late launching because everyone decided to rig on the slipway. By the time I realized I'd ballsed up the kite sheets we were 40 seconds from the start. Theres a few little things that will make a massive difference!!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Simon T on May 21, 2015, 10:32:15 PM
Hi Mike,

A tight mainsail leech is what makes the boat point a bit higher, cherub mainsails have a large roach so the leech needs to be as parrallel to the centreline as possible to reduce drag so don't be shy with the kicker if there's enough breeze to be wiring, it's really powerful for a reason, but make sure you let it all off before bearing away! The thing is if you sail really high and stuff up in the gusts then you are displacement sailing in a 12 ft boat which isn't fast. Speed is key upwind keep her flat and try to accelerate in the gusts even if it means easing the mainsheet a little and footing off to build speed then pointing her back up again after the gust has past. Don't let her screw up in the gusts as windward planing is what it is all about. Very few sailing dinghies are capable of windward planing so take advantage of it. Tighter main leech really helps though. Failing that take advantage of the rocket shipness with the kite up!
Title: Re: Strangely Brown
Post by: Tim Noyce on May 22, 2015, 07:01:30 AM
As T says... kicker is key.

http://www.uk-cherub.org/forum/index.php/topic,1905.msg20301.html#msg20301

If you do any forum searches, they will always end up with people telling you to use more kicker... If you can get any photos of you sailing, take a look, you want the whole sail powered up, lots of people make the mistake of not using enough kicker so the top half of the sail is far too open.