UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Sailing Stories => Topic started by: ross_burkin on March 24, 2008, 10:02:29 PM
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For another year or so. There is a LOT more I can learn in FS and he's just too much fun to sell. After many long conversations with many Cherub sailors this weekend it's better if I stick with the absolute cracker of a boat I have at the moment and then upgrade to a post 97' boat. The capital I have and the money I will be earning will be spent on getting on the road and getting to as many events as possible as well as moving to a much more Cherub friendly bit of water.
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sounds cool ross, i'd change your footer though
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For now Ross that is the right decision.
We beleive that time on the water is most important. We proved that over the last two days and feel a lot more in control of the boat.
Even a 97ish rules boat can beat a 12 foot skiff so Stanley still has lots of potential in the right hands.
My advice would be to get the boat reliable and fix any leaks and get sailing and racing as much as possible.
For racing, get a watch with a count down on it. The casio sea pathfinder is ideal and only £25. Do as much club racing as possible to practice starts and mark roundings. come to the cherub events that you can make without breaking the bank.
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Hi Ross,
What club are you thinking of?
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There are a few options; Draycote, Grafham, BBSC, Blackwater and Wilsonian. All of them have or will have Cherubs sailing there. Grafham and Draycote are a treck but offer good sailing. This comes at a price though. Chatting to Roland and Hailey this weekend, they say that the water level at BBSC gets low during the summer and the winds are pretty flukey so they are almost completely set on Wilsonian. Roland mentioned that you are thinking of moving there to Will. Wilsonian is the cheapest, closest and if Slippy and your new Elway 5 are moving there it looks like Wilsonian is my best bet. Plus it's on bumpy water, and my first real bumpy water experience this weekend was nuts so that’s a bonus ;D Downwind in chop in a Cherub is fun!
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There is also a cherub at Whitstable YC which has no banks and mored boats ot worry about . And at times can get very choppy. Whitstable is a well organised club with lots of competition
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It's doable so it's an option.
Now I am keeping FS for a while, I need to make him much prettier and possibly upgrade a few bits and pieces. He will still be 91 rules minus the larger kite that Roland has given to me and I wont be doing and surgery. He is very sailable and functions as a boat just fine, but is very tatty. A dagger style rudder would be very useful. Roland has already offered his assistance.
I did a few things today. I located a leek in the pole launch tube. Not good as this is a deck off job. I need to get hatch seals for the side tanks to stop me sinking (easy peasy one to do) and locate any other leaks. Patch up transom and other holes, dinks etc (easy but time consuming). Strip decks and repaint will be done eventually after everything is back up to scratch and I have a spare weekend.
Another thing I'm thinking of is a carbon mast. These minor things all add weight and a carbon mast and boom will make a difference. I want to build these for a couple of reasons:
1) I will learn some sticky skills,
2) I will learn about masts, how they work, what suits me, what suits the rig and the boat.
3) It will be better than any mast I can buy for the money it will cost to build and even if it isn't I will have learnt some important stuff.
**The following is an after thought**
The carbon mast will allow me to get rid of the prod and related fittings (loose some weight) and install a self tacker. I could then go out in light airs and sail it by my self (Iain in suicide style) when I haven’t got a crew. I wouldn't have to buy another boat then either and the more Cherubing I can do the better! I would get some more boat handling skills, trapezing and helming from the wire experience/practice. It would just be a bloody giggle as well. Of course the self tacker can be disengaged and put back to normal if needs be.
I would really like to do this unless someone can think of a definate reason not to.
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sounds like you've had a productive day. :)
How big is the hole on the pole launch tube? Is it near the ends? Just wondering if it can be fixed without taking the deck off.
Consider jobs that take the boat off the water for a while for after the main events so you don't miss sailing time.
Carbon boom is a good sticky weekend job.
building Carbon masts from scratch is tricky but second hand RS 600 masts are a possible sustitute. Even broken ones can be fixed if you have the assistance of an experienced cheruber. It can be a bit of work if you need to move spreaders around. Not a job that i have done yet.
A dagger style rudder stock can be made quite easily. Again a bit of experience from another cheruber helps overcome all the issues. I recycled Slippery's old rudder blade from a pivoting stock style to a dagger style. The bottom of the old blade is now the top of the current one. It envolved a lot of sanding and fairing but taught me a lot of building skills.
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The mast on Taking Liberties was a superspars RS700 mast, which is very similar to the mast on the GT60. That is a very simple round tube and can be fixed really easily. When I did mine it cost me a total of £15, stick was free as was kindly given to me by Rhys, a length of tube which fitted inside the tube was a tenner, and then some offcuts of track cost me a fiver. It's a bit less stiff than the 600 mast too so works pretty well.
All you have to do now is find a 700 mast!
I would recommend against building a mast. I've never done it but it's not easy. 12 hours solid laminating with probably the same amount of prep time cutting cloth... not exactly my idea of fun! Plus there is the added factor that if you mess up you have wasted (x) pounds of carbon and resin that is probably then rendered useless unless you want a couple of skinny booms or tapered wing bars!
Start small... work up to the bigger more complicated things.
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I'm always looking out for broken carbon rigs but I seem to be very unlucky. An 800 mast broke at King George but I'm fairly sure that it went off for repair. I joined the 600 Yahoo mailing list and got a few replies but everyone wanted to sell me broken masts for quite a lot of money which takes the piss really. It's a BROKEN mast. I'll join the 700 group and see if I have any luck. If the people at skiffier clubs than I could keep an eye out for me it would be appreciated. If I could get it done for Tims jaw dropping £15 I would be over the moon! I was bitterly disappointed when the only mast at Weston that snapped was a tree trunk aluminum cat mast.
I would like to make a mast at some point, but maybe I need (much) more experience.
Phil,
No idea how big the hole is exactly. We took the pole out and had a good look down the tube. It looks cracked but it could just be where bits glass fiber join/meet. It sounds like it’s much nearer the bow end though. We taped up one end and stuck a hose in the tube and we could hear a small waterfall but I couldn't see water coming out of it. There was water in the tank after, and it wasn't exactly a trickle either.
The layout is almost spot on now which make life a lot easier.
I have to sort out my dagger board as well. Half the back edge is just bog and has no structure and it buzzes like a hornet’s nest almost all the time which is not fast!
How much will a rudder cost? Could I use the blade I have now?
Reading all this makes me realise that FS really needs a lot of TLC and I haven’t mentioned everything that needs to be done yet :o. Thinking about it, I would love to get him looking amazing and maybe try and get the prettiest boat award (obviously not this year). An achievement I (or anyone else) would be really proud of. The main aim is to get a bloody good, fully functioning, fully reliable 91' rules Cherub though which I almost have.
I need to get him into a garage over a long weekend. I will talk to my dad and see if he will wheel out the MGB that’s rusting away in there.
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**Top tips for sealing hatch covers**
Buy a decent sized tub of Vasaline. Put large amounts of this on the thread of the hatch everytime you put it on... also good for sealing bung holes.
Put loads of silicone underneath and around the hatch fitting (its amazing how much they leak!)
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Sounds like a lot of work best of luck with it mate.
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**Top tips for sealing hatch covers**
Buy a decent sized tub of Vasaline. Put large amounts of this on the thread of the hatch everytime you put it on... also good for sealing bung holes.
Put loads of silicone underneath and around the hatch fitting (its amazing how much they leak!)
I've been advised against this. If dirt, sand and other stuff gets stuck in the Vaseline you don’t have a proper water tight seal and water just floods in. I can do this to the bigger inspection hatches as I never take them off. The small black ones at the back of the tank I use for general empting etc will have to be sealed properly and probably replaced.
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Someone has replied on the 700 yahoo group saying they have a 700 mast in 2 pieces that I can have! It's at Queen Mary so it not far away. Thats 'step 1' half completed.
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I located a leek in the pole launch tube. Not good as this is a deck off job.
I disagree with you there. Slice it up it, fry it in butter with some chopped bacon pieces, cover for 10 mins on a low heat and add a dash of coarsely ground black pepper at the end, and it will be lovely. Enjoy.
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**Top tips for sealing hatch covers**
Buy a decent sized tub of Vasaline. Put large amounts of this on the thread of the hatch everytime you put it on... also good for sealing bung holes.
Put loads of silicone underneath and around the hatch fitting (its amazing how much they leak!)
I've been advised against this. If dirt, sand and other stuff gets stuck in the Vaseline you don’t have a proper water tight seal and water just floods in. I can do this to the bigger inspection hatches as I never take them off. The small black ones at the back of the tank I use for general empting etc will have to be sealed properly and probably replaced.
On my old 14 I used vaseline on the hatches, it stopped the leaks and I never had problems with dirt getting in, you just have to be carefull how much you put on and not take them off with sand covered ropes sitting on top.
I also took every single fitting off the boat and re siliconed them each year.
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Ok, thats another thing to add to the list.
Now I 'have' this 700 mast I might as well get the ball rolling and start getting everything ready for his referb. The plan is to get him into the garage for a week (between Sundays so I can go sailing as normal ;D) and just do everything in one hit. I'll be building a new rudder within the next few weeks and getting hold of all the materials, tools and parts I need.
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the advert's still up on Apollo duck you know
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Right, Stanley is at home and is getting:
1) Repaired- The side tank (already started), the launch tube (requires me to chop of some off the deck :-\), other quick repairs that need redoing, anything else I find.
2) New layout- Everything gets tangled all the time so it's time to rethink the position of cleats and stuff. Fronting plates for fittings, can these just be bogged in place or is it advisable to lay some glass or carbon over the top?
3) PAINT- Flat Stanley looks shite and I'll be sanding most of the paint of due to repairs I might as well repaint him. I'm open to suggestions!
4) T-foil- Flat Stanley has fair amount of rocker and is an old school wide boy big arse Cherub. What will this mean for shape and size of the foil? Kevin, I’m sure you have something very clever to say hear.
5) Bottom panel needs refairing- It looks like the Lake District. My guess is that the epoxy has failed and the Kevlar has just depressed into the foam. I'm thinking if I sand down (vary carefully!) and epoxy the area then peel ply over the top then fill and fair.
OR
I could cut out the foam of the affected area, put some new foam in, glass or carbon over the top and fair.
I'll get some pictures up soon.
6) Anything else I think of doing.
I finish college on Friday so I’m just going to spend all day, everyday fixing him up and then go sailing all of the time!
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Fronting plates may not work on ply - old school backing plates are probably better if you can get to the back.
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I was thinking on the floor for some spinnaker related string.
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On a fronting plate for spiniker blocks I would suggest two layers of 200g glass extending 2-3cm beyond the plate.
The bottom is probably just dents in the foam from years of being put down on the ground.
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I need some very light filler. I think I remember Will and Lucy mentioning that Tim Unerman has something a bit special. Is it true Tim?
I want to keep Stanley as light a possible and if I'm doing this work I might as well do it properly. I went to B&Q this morning and got myself a dremel. I had a bit of 'Pasta Frenzy' (glass foam sandwich, kindly donated by the Lee's) that I cut to shape with a lip around the edge and bogged it in place. The top is pretty much flush with the deck so the jobs a good'un! I need to glass over the back and fill the gaps in and then fair it. The repair is messy in the picture but it is nowhere near finished. I'm going to sand of the dribbles on the back.
I have almost taken all the fittings of ready for stripping the paint back.
I'm going to have to take a chunk out of the foredeck and I'm thinking that if it's going to be fairly big anyway it might be worth redoing it in light foam and carbon/glass. To do it will I have to build a jig, bend the foam to shape and then glass/carbon what will be the inside of the front tank?
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I'm going to have to take a chunk out of the foredeck and I'm thinking that if it's going to be fairly big anyway it might be worth redoing it in light foam and carbon/glass. To do it will I have to build a jig, bend the foam to shape and then glass/carbon what will be the inside of the front tank?
Depending on how much curvature there is in the foredeck there is probably no need to build a jig. Just laminate the inside skin of the foam flat on the ground then bog it in place using battens, weights and ratchet straps to get it to shape.( do a dry practice before you put bog on)
Once it is in place you can trim it to the edges and laminate the outside skin, taking the cloth down to the sides.
You need to use quite thin foam for it to work 6-8mm and probably 1 layer of 200g glass for inside and two on the outside one at 45 and on 0-90 plus more in the local spots where you need hard points.
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I'm going to have to take a chunk out of the foredeck and I'm thinking that if it's going to be fairly big anyway it might be worth redoing it in light foam and carbon/glass.
I really don't see the need. There's no structural advantage on Stanley. What you should use is exterior grade 3mm plywood. You'll struggle to get much lighter in foam unless you go for a really fragile layup, and you'll keep the original style and save a big lump of cash. It should absolutely not be veneered plywood, just plain ply, and buy the lightest bit in the shop not the prettiest:-)
Just fill any dents in the bottom with light filler. Don't go into the laminate unless you are 100% sure there's a core failure, and if there is work from the inside if at all possible. Be *very* wary about sanding down. If you get to kevlar you'll really regret it. You should stop at white paint. As for colours dirty white with not very shiny varnish ply decks is the right finish for Flat Stanley. If you can manage a rust streak from being kept upside down in a shed with a galvanised iron roof then so much the better:-)
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I did a test sanding on the top side and there’s a good amount of filler/bog before the Kevlar. Before that there’s a layer of primer (gray), white paint then blue paint. I'll sand until I see gray.
After giving the dents a good poking they don’t seem to be soft which is a good sign. I'm just going to sand it down a bit then fill with a glass bubbles/epoxy mix.
The paint is lifting and peeling off in a lot of places. Does this mean I could put a heat gun to good use hear? The paint isn't brittle and peels off easily.
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OK, I need to order some epoxy? Where do I get it from and what brand do I go for.
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Firstly don't use a heat gun near composite as you could heat it up and destort it badly.
Epoxy: the main brands I have used in the past are, SP, Sicomin, West & PRF If you are using what the call the wood epoxy system they are all about as good as each other just try and get a slower hardner for this time of year.
For Sicomin you need www.mcmc-uk.com
For SP if you want volume then go for marine ware in southampton www.marineware.com
West system try wessex resins www.wessex-resins.com
PRF www.prfcomposites.com/
All of which are a bit of a distance from you if you want something more local then you could try welsh harp who stock SP
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Ok, thanks Tim.
I have just found the MOTHER of all leaks in my launch tube. There are several holes, gashes and splits along my launch tube.
I cut a hole in the foredeck and ran some water down and got a proper look. There was a small waterfall.
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Has anyone got any ideas for T-foil adjustment systems without modding the boat?
Roland, can you sketch in paint how your system works please.
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Have a version at home in CAD as well if it helps ;-)
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I think it would ;)
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Painting.
I'm sanding Stanley back to primer so could I just paint strait over the top?
For painting I plan on using pot paints. What do I buy?
I want to warm the paint up and plan on rollering it on then wet sanding to get the paint bump free and thin. Whats the best way to warm up the paint?
Instead of painting them could I paint them with epoxy? This would be waterproof and last much longer than paint. Would it be heavy?
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The main advantage of using undercoat is that the colour comes out much better ie you only need 1 coat of under coat or with 1 or 2 coats of top coat. If you use only top coat then you might have to put on 4-5 coat.
In terms of which paint to use you can either use single pack either blakes or international both will give quite a good finish and will last long enough. Two pack paint are much better but you do have to be much more careful with undercoating and mixing etc.
The third option is to use standard two pack car paint which needs to be sprayed but is avalible in more colours.
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For the best painted finish the paint should go on with a roler and you then tip it off by brushing verry lightly with a paintbrush or foam brush
Remember the paint will still be slightly soft for a week after it goes on so be carefull if you sail or tow just after painting.
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You can use a brush or roller with car paint - This is how we did NB's not very good orange paint job.
W
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use a paint kettle and paint the paint on warm (makes it thinner), i use a foam wedge type brush for finnishing as they dont leave hairs everywhere!
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I've just had a look at the space frame in the front tank to find that one of the struts is a bit wobbly which is quite worrying. On closer inspection I discovered that the plates on either side of the main strut had cracked (as drawn in my dodgy paint diagram).
The top of the strut (where it meats the bow) is fine. How can i fix it? I'm thinking of just throwing a load of bog into it and then epoxying a plate on the outside for good measure.
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The paint is off the side decks and have now been epoxified, I'm waiting for the launch to go off and the space frame has been repaired. Tomorrow I'm fitting the pole tube, putting a patch in the foredeck, flipping the boat over and starting on the hull. My aim to be on the water this weekend is looking achievable, maybe with a T-foil!
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For anyone who is interested.
I got tired and bored of hand sanding so I went out and spent more money on more power tools. I got myself a random orbital sander which has made life a lot easier. I have filled the majority of dents and chips and tomorrow I will finish sanding the topsides and do some fairing then it's on with the paint. I think I'm going with all red with 1mm black progrip on the side decks and a white cockpit.
Backing plates. Will a fitting bolted though a backing plate which is mounted under a 3-4mm piece of ply break or will it be ok with a lot of force pulling it upwards?
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Step 1 is attaching the fitting to the deck. A backing plate will do that, especially if epoxied in too.
Step 2 is ensuring the bit of deck won't come away - basically don't put it in the middle of a huge unreinforced area. Which fitting is it?
Exam 1 tomorrow - 3 hours - 10 am 1 pm.
Exam 2 (possibly the last in my life) Wednesday - 3 hours - 10am to 1pm.
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Right, I had enough of sanding so I went out and got some paint (Sentax exterior gloss). I rollered it on thinly then went over it very lightly to even it all, then let gravity do its thing and suck it all down in to one big mass of paint. It's a very thin even layer and I think I will only do one more or things will start getting heavy.
Adem (the crew) came round and had a look and was very pleased with it. But he rollered a couple of bits just when it was beginning to harden and dry so it has a few textured patches. I plan on going over the hole thing with very fine wet and dry tomorrow and adding layer number 2.
Having to have to do it outside means that there is now little bits of leaves, flys and bits of stuff that float about in the air sticking themselves to it but the wet and dry should sort it out.
The dark patches is the bog from the original fairing process and the second layer of paint should cover it. It's also under a big tree so the leaves are casting shadows on it. If I have to paint a boat again I will be spraying it in white first and then the finished job will look much better. So far I'm happy!
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Ross, she looks a treat.
No-one will ever take a picture closer than that when you are sailing - so you have achieved Cherub paint job perfection :-)
Time to stop painting an get him sailing.....
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Cheers Roland. I'm going to apply one more coat because the tin says I should and it will be a little more bash resistant. Thursday I will flipping him over and working like mad to get him finished. Things left to do after the second coat are:
Foredeck- Patch needs blending into the surrounding area and made watertight, then it's off with the paint and on with the sexy new red paint.
Cockpit- Needs touching up in a few places paint wise. Sand off excess paint. Put down strips of grip tape on the floor. Bog in the 'shelf' around the top of the centerboard case where it has cracked and come loose. Redo a couple of repairs in the wall of the side tanks. Seal the hatches. Fill holes left by the removed fittings. Stick on progrip to the side tanks. Sort out the bit the mainsheet ties to. Make a tiny kite sock to stop the kite flopping around the cockpit.
Foils- fix and fair! Then make a T-foil and stock.
Layout- I need to make fronting plates for sticking fittings onto the floor. Stick backing plates under a few places to bolt fittings to. Get on with fitting out!
Ropes- Some need replacing and cutting to the correct length. New mainsheet (I’m currently using two tied together). Spinnaker sheets are too short. New trapeze lines. Need more purchase in the kicker.
Sails- Batten pockets are wreck on both the jib and the main. I need one batten in the main. Bolt rope has started to some out of the main. There’s a hole in my spinnaker that needs repairing.
Spars- the boom needs to be fitted out properly.
Foot loops and make a decent trolley. I think that’s all of it. 8)
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Step 1 is attaching the fitting to the deck. A backing plate will do that, especially if epoxied in too.
Step 2 is ensuring the bit of deck won't come away - basically don't put it in the middle of a huge unreinforced area. Which fitting is it?
Exam 1 tomorrow - 3 hours - 10 am 1 pm.
Exam 2 (possibly the last in my life) Wednesday - 3 hours - 10am to 1pm.
I'm planning on having the kicker and maybe the downhaul adjustable on both sides. Basically there is a block attached to the end of the line going through all the purchase, then a rope threaded through this block and on either side there is a turning block out to a cleat on the side deck. Paint diagram...
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on Slippery which has a floor stepped mast the kicker most of the kicker loads are attached to the mast step. This means the mast is pushing down and the kicker is pulling up. I did have the ends of the cascade part of the kicker and the bottom of the 4:1 purchase part attached to the mast but both attempts suffered from chafe and finally gave up at bala. the only loads not coming off the mast step are the loads to the cleats which are marginally small.
Assuming I pull on 20kgs of kicker tension a 16:1 purchase has 320kgs of tension in the first line of the cascade, 160kgs in the second line and 80 in the third. that's 560kg plus a factor of safety for shock load for slamming, wind loading, gusts or nose dives or a combination of the lot.
therefore if you attach the whole lot to a single point as i have it should be capable of holding at least 2 tonnes. If you take the ends of the kicker to several points each will be sharing the load.
The fittings leading the kicker out to the side decks could be carrying 100 kg's each.
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If you want a source of awesome cheap rope... http://www.cheap-rope.co.uk/products.asp?Department=Dinghy%20Rope&SectionID=35 (http://www.cheap-rope.co.uk/products.asp?Department=Dinghy%20Rope&SectionID=35)
Free delivery and it's bloody good stuff. Otherwise get in contact with someone who buys in bulk and get them to buy you a roll.
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That looks good value! It is tempting to buy a whole roll but you don't want to have all your control lines in the same colour. Especially if you have them all coming to a bank of adjacent cleats.
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You could try Ian Turnbull www.bovboats.co.uk/ (http://www.bovboats.co.uk/) he is trying to clear some of his stock of rope and is giving good deals
Phil
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I'm going to be building the T-foil this week. I'm going for Kevin's new assymetric section but I'm not sure what blade profile to go with. Help?
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I made up a couple of frontting plastes last night but I have used zinc plated bolts, nuts and washers. Redo them with stainless steel or will they be OK?
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Redo them zinc plated will rust badly and wont last more than a few weeks.
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Not a very good pic, but it hides the imperfections!
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And it's FINISHED! Sailing Saturday (if I find a crew). The forecast is mental...
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we need pics!!