UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Calendar Events => Topic started by: dave_ching on June 11, 2010, 07:19:15 PM
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Thanks, did Simon and Phil keep a copy of the results?
As we have now finished the first leg of the Travelers have we thought about how we are going to score the results?
We could count final postions in each event or we could count each race as part of a single large multi venus event.
Personally I do not care which way we do it but it is nice to know what everyone wants to do.
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Likewise I'm not that bothered either way but it would be potentially more simple to go with the overall result from each event. How many will count for the series? No discards or 3 out of 4?
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Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting in any way that this is how the Traveller's Trophy should be scored now (not least because I'm not active in the TT at present). But just for interest, here's how it used to be scored in the 1990's.
The TT used to be run by Graham Dickenson, owner of Bistro 2647 "Fubar", which he sailed with his son Owen. I'm pretty sure Graham still has his boat, but it hasn't been seen out and about for a few years. The scheme went like this:
Any event which had 5 or more Cherub entries counted as a TT event. A boat's best 5 event scores were added up for its end of season result.
1st place scored 15 points plus one point for each boat beaten
2nd place scored 14 points plus one point for each boat beaten
3rd place scored 13 points plus one point for each boat beaten
and so on..
This gave a decent haul of points for first place at any TT event, but with extra weighting for a top position at an event with lots of entries (e.g. the Nationals). It also allowed some points scoring even for a boat which came last in 2 events, and in fact that boat might be rewarded with a decent score if it made the effort to get to an event which was less popular, with fewer entries. e.g. 21st at a 22-boat Nationals would score you 1 point, but 5th at a 6-boat event would score you 12 points.
The only downside was that Graham was the only guy who could remember how to score it and add it all up!
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Finishing places at the end of the 4 events sounds good to me.
I think it should be no discards. missing one event should be the equivelant of a DNS.
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SInce then the scoring has been one point for coming and on3 point for each boat you beat.
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sounds ok but wouldn' be good to have more of an insentive to turn up at all events?
ie winning any event is worth 1 point and not turning up to an event would be number of entrants plus one.
But to be honest not my problem I will turn up at all events I hope and will not win which ever scoring system we use.
Unless we go for the Shiny green boats with more than 1 nationality aboard get special bonus points.
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With no discards a no show at one event should not mean you can't score in the series otherwise we are in danger of having no qualifiers. The different scoring systems are interesting. As Dave suggests the scoring should reward attendance and reward success at better attended events. I would suggest something along the lines of the original system Neil mentioned perhaps starting with 25 for first as in formula one.
Attendance at an event should at least mean turning up with a boat and being in the starting area for a race. entering online, turning up without a boat or not leaving the beach should not count.
Do we include the nationals as a traveller and make it 5 events?
I will edit the S.I.s for the enterprise severnside series as a starter for 10. I doubt we will get anywhere talking about it on the forum.
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Ok
What do we think of the attached?
High points scoring idea included. Everyone gets 3 points for turning up. I thought that having a fixed top score could back fire on us if set to low and overly peanalise non attendance of one event. (I.E. if you can't make every event you may as well not bother attitude).
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I like the "3rd place team wrties the report".
Are we keeping the DNC (boat did not launch at event) and DNF (started but did not finish) being scored higher?
Personally I'd be more in favour of a least points series scoring system. That encourages the turnout to the least attended events...
Strawberry - ball is in your court.
PS We are in last either way.
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I wager We might have that honor this year as we are only going to make Sunderland :D
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Thanks everyone for sharing your views. I'm a bit late coming to the party but this is how I see it:
I hope there will be 5 travellers as I'm looking to organise an inland event in September which will count.
I would really like to encourage attendance at all Travellers events so I think all 5 should count with no discards.
The National Championship should be a completely separate competition to the Travellers Trophy and so the nationals result will not count towards the travellers.
To encourage participation at lower attended events the scoring for the Travellers Trophy will be based on the “lowest score” method:
1st – 1 point
2nd – 2 points
3rd – 3 points
etc.
Amended SI's below.
Happy to discuss...
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How will we score not attendance? Does a DNS receive number of event entries + 1? Or shall we make it number of entries +5 to give more encouragement to attend so that coming last is a fair bit better than not bothering to turn up?
ps, I see no ammended SI's
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Oops, forgot to attach...
Non-attendance will be scored as "number of people entering the Travellers Trophy +1"
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At the moment these SI's do not specify what points you get after third. So could be read that finishing fourth gets zero points, perhaps you should just reference the Appendix A definitions for scoring, and then add the changes that you want to make.
It is a bit irrelevant for me as I will probably only be doing Sunderland, however I think that having no discards is very harsh, It could well mean that turning up to all the events is enough to win (depending on the spread of entrants)
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It would be nice to work out a system in which all competitors get a point relivant to there position.
We are an inclusive fleet but only scoring points for the first three positions does discard most of the fleet from any interest in the travellers at all.
Though I must admit last year it wouldn't of made any difference.
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Really sorry about the confusion caused. The intention is that position points will be awarded to all positions, up to a million if that many people turned up! I thought I had put an "etc" after the 1st 2nd and 3rd, but I can't now open the file on the iPhone to check.
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So what happens if a million and one people turn up?
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We're going to need a considerably longer start line, or maybe split the fleet in to 2 starts.
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I hope there will be 5 travellers as I'm looking to organise an inland event in September which will count.
How about at QMSC? We would like that - but then we are biased.
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If we had a million boats at an event I would expect a number of SNOD dinghy manufacturers to be out of business and some smaller boat builders will be very rich. If that happens I don't want to be class secretary. It sounds like a lot more work than I have time for.
You would need a very big rigging area too.
I would expect Wiz would have a mobile shop 'for all those essential repairs'.
If the start line equalled the total length of all the boats it would be 4000km long. The race officer would need very good eyesight to see to the other end of the line in new york. the race limit might need to be more than 75 minutes as well.
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It would probably take a million and a half years to build the boats so I don't think we need to worry just yet!
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Even on a very well set line, there would be a lot of bias on a line that long! Anyway, it's nothing to worry about, I was just being silly.
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A million and one boats would not cause any problems with Stu's travellers trophy system: It's when infinity and one show up that the problems start!
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It would probably take a million and a half years to build the boats so I don't think we need to worry just yet!
I'm almost there with that one right now!
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Good to hear it Daryl.
We look forward to seeing you at the Traveller events.
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So what happens when two boats are tied on points at an event?
3 Choices:
-Award equal series points (life's too short).
-Use "highest position finished" (i.e 2 boats tie on points, boat 1's best finish was 3rd in one race, Boat 2 other's best place was a 5th. First boat wins. If still tied then number of highest places, if still tied then call it a draw and give both boats the best tied points).
-Use result from last race of series (I do not like this one!).
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At an event the positions will be determined by the event sailing instructions and ties will be split in accordance with the RRS.
The traveler series SI.'s also include a line to say that ties will be split in accrdance with RRS A 8 or whatever.
This means that the tie will first be split on the number of 1sts, 2nds, 3rds etc, then if there is still a tie the position in the last race and I can't remember the 3rd option.
The S.I.s reffer to the RRS to keep them consise. I wouldn't expect everyone to know the full RRS word for word, i don't , but it should be possible for anyone to find the part referenced.
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So, as Tim says with 3/4 races done, and 3 different winners, it is as they say wide open.
So has anyone got a correct leaderboard ?
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Latest results attached. If there's any glaring inaccuracies, please let me know.
It's looking like attendance is the name of the game, with a a missed event costing 14points!
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umm, stu, its not attached mate
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I can see it fine. Stu, its all 4 to count, right ?
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sorry stu, it must not work in my browser, ill try another
sorry
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Sorry to bring confusion, I did forget to attach the results. Then I edited my post so they are there now.
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its all 4 to count, right ?
Stu?
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5 to count, there will be an inlands.
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My view is that next year we should allow 1 discard so that the results are not so dependant on people being able to make each event. The results will then encourage teams to sail better which in turn improves the quality of the racing.
This view is not meant as a snub to those who have turned up to every event but it has split the series into two with those who can make every event and those who have missed one.
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Stu, or anyone, is there anything firm on the venue/date of the inlands ?
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There were sixteen entrants to the UK Cherub Class Travellers Trophy 2010. The format is based on five event around the country, roughly in the North, East, South, West and an inland event, meaning that every Cheruber had their “local open meeting”.
The series kicked off at Whitstable Yacht Club with 11 entrants, including a debutant Chris Lewns in the Antidote to Panel Games and the long awaited return of Dave Roe sailing The Pasta Frenzy. In fairly light breeze the racing was incredibly close between the E5’s, Antidote and Usagi Yojimbo, sailed by Andy and Jill Peters. Antidote must have had “beginners luck” on home waters to take victory.
There are a plethora of sailing clubs on the South coast, but this year the Cherubs visited Poole Yacht Club, the home of Shiny Beast. This event was a real test of boat handling in a solid breeze with a small course on Day One. The fleet was shattered by the evening and enjoyed a barbecue at Dave and Lara’s house in Bournemouth. There was too much breeze for sensible sailing on the second day and so the deserved leaders from the first day took home the win, Tim Noyce and Alex Cramp in The Badgers Nadgers.
Next on the calendar was Thornbury Sailing Club on the Severn Estuary. The club provided some challenging tidal racing and an interesting break from the windward/leeward courses we normally sail. Remembering the order of the marks proved too much for Stu Tinner and Ross Burkin in Ronin, but no problem at all for the winners Graham and Eddie Bridle in Riot Van who made best use of their experience of sailing in strong tide.
The class organised the Northern event to be on the way to the National Championships in Scotland, in order to break up the long drive. The venue was Sunderland Yacht Club. The breeze on Day One was too much for sensible racing and it was cancelled. Everything had calmed down a little on Sunday and the Cherubs had some close racing. The victory went to the brand new boat for this season, E-Numbers, sailed by Phil and Sarah Kirk.
The Bridles, Senior and Junior, were leading the Travellers Trophy going in to the final event of the season. The fleet headed to Queen Mary Sailing Club in order to test their skills and this event doubled as The Inland Championships. There was extremely close racing not only at the front of the fleet between the “05 Rules” boats, but also between the “97 Rules” Cherubs. Local sailors Andy and Jill Peters on Usagi Yojimbo won the Inland Championships.
After five races and no discards Graham and Eddie Bridle were top of the table and deserved winners. They proved consistency was the name of the game, always being in the top four finishers. The series have results have gone to prove how competitive the racing is in the Cherub fleet with all five events having different winners. Following the success in 2010 the Cherub fleet are training hard over the winter in preparation for the meetings of 2011 to pit ourselves against each other for a shot at the title.
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Good report.
It would be good to email this to yachts and yachting again to increase our exposure to the sailing fraternity.
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done.
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Good effort team Bridle!