UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: Jake_holmes on May 06, 2010, 10:15:30 PM
-
hey everyone.
Im looking to build a cherub and am wondering if anyone has a mould available to borrow for a few months. Im not fussed on a design but something like the patterson 7, slug, or italian bistro shape would be good. Im currently based in Bere Alston on the river tamar (5 miles from plymouth) and so would be modifying the boat so it has a centreboard rather than a daggerboard. The build shall take place in north devon in a place called Biddeford. I would greatly appreciate for someone to get back to me ASAP as time will probably be reasonably short. Im willing to rent the mould if thats also suitable and can collect within a reasonable distance.
cheers,
Jake Holmes
-
oh and im afraid im going away for a week sailing in greece so i will check the forums as reguarly as i can.
-
... and so would be modifying the boat so it has a centreboard rather than a daggerboard.
I'll bet you a fiver you convert it to a daggerboard within a year if you do...
-
Most probably, im still undecided on if it will have a dagger or centreboard depending on where i keep it. To be honest a daggerboard would be fine for most places at which it would be sailed. Plus i hadn't thought if a centreboard would be suitable for a cherub please excuse my ignorance.
-
It will do you a world of good to own one before you build one. Plenty of decnt boats for sale atm for anyone looking for something cheap and good footing in the world of Cherub-astan.
-
Hi Jake,
I live in Kingsbridge, Devon, and have 2 boats down here which you could come sailing in if you fancied it. I've got 2303 a classic boat and 2694 a 2005 rules boat. I've just joined Roadford Sailing Club up near Oakhampton which although is a bit of a drive seems like an excellent place for Cherub sailing.
-
Hi Jake,
2303 is a lot like your current boat, only with a daggerboard. We were down your way at the weekend and did the old boats event at roadford.
Will
-
hey guys,
the reason im looking for a mould is because my dads work is needs to show off their work and so needs something complicated so that they can get a large job from another company. I was unable to make the classic event as i was racinf yachts offshore for 3 days.
-
I have a set of MDF frames for a Banshee design which you could turn into a mould. Otherwise the E5 mould still exists.
-
Im not short of cash to complete the boat whatever happens. The hull, foils, boom, and bowsprit would be made by my dads work and the sails and mast would also possibly half/fully paid for by them depending on what they are going to do. Id love to come sail with you tim, ive sailed laser 4k's and hobies before and race a slow but reasonably quick when its windy hobie 405.
-
I also have a set of MDF frames for a Banshee design which you could turn into a mould. Otherwise the E5 mould still exists.
--------
It would be awesome to get hold of the E5 mould if that would be possible.
-
Hi Jake,
The current moulds in existence I know of are:
E6 - Belongs to Cookie, booked up for many months - 2 boats. Also probably not available to use.
E5 - Belongs to Lucy and me, booked up for many months. It is on the Isle of Wight and is in use for the moment. 1 or 2 boats.
Slug - Belongs to the class. In Paris but available for collection any time (pending the approval of the committee). Not in amazing shape but probably good for another boat after a little bit of work. This is probably your best bet if you want a mould in a hurry. You must join the association first though. It is quite an old design now.
For something more up to date, but needing more work, the Banshee frames offered above might be best. There is not much to choose between the modern narrow hulls.
-
cheers will,
Don't worry im quite willing to join the class association :D, The banshee frame sounds great, i will have to re-talk with my dad about the time scale. Im sorry once again that i couldn't make the event at roadford id already promised myself to yachting.
-
No problem Jake, it was a great weekend of Vintage boating none the less! How is your other boat coming along? I am keen to get more old boats sailing as they have a lot of fun to offer, not sure if you got my email but I would be more than happy to come over and assist to get you on the water.
I think my plan is to take the Badgers Nadgers back to Roadford after Whitstable so potentially any time in June we can do some 05 sailing, or before that if you fancied some old skool action the boat is ready to go.
Couple of pics from the weekend...
-
The boat is almost finished and should be sailing pretty soon. Ive had a busy few months with school, work, and other commitments and so the boat has taken the back seat. Unfortunatly the boat is pretty knackered and although looks reasonably tidy with its new paint job there is significant softening of the firbreglass within the side buoyoncy tanks. I don't really want to have to seperate the hull from the deck as i don't want to be pouring money into a boat that needs significant work for very little results. We should be sailing her pretty soon on the tamar and i will just sail her until she breaks. Id love to come sailing in the summer, i will be away for a few days here and there as im racing to ST Malo, the scilies and doing a number of reggatta's in france, one in barcelona and possibly the Fife regatta if i can pursuade the owner. I can give you my mobile number and home contact address and can easily get to roadford as its only 40 mins away.
-
Good stuff. 2303 is pretty soft as well and the floor flexes quite a bit when walked on but seems solid enough where I have re-attached the side tanks. My worry is that if I strengthen the floor then something else will give way!
Send me a private message with your details if you don't want to publish them openly.
Where do you do most of your yachting out of? I've been doing foredeck on a UFO 27 out of Darmouth this season for Wednesday evening racing which is excellent fun.
-
Plymouth mainly, and hopefully this year some more stuff abroad on a fife replica. If you ever want to get into more yachty stuff i know plently of people who want crew. I sail a GK24 and an MG RS 34 atm, slow upwind so we need to bully her allot, we do well though. Im going to start crewing on an x332 and an x362 i just need to chat with a mate again. Other than that its really easy finding last minute places for some of the bigger events. haha mine is soft pretty much everywhere and sounds like it cracks everytime you stand on the deck, im sure its just movement *fingers crossed*. I just need to re-glass the transom and fit the P&G and then reglass an area around the starboard shroud where the backing ply has rotten. Ive got some reasonably fancy sails from will on loan so it should go reasonably well. The rudder is looking very short for low wing sailing but we shall have to wait and see. Looks like the newbuild is going to be a banshee built out of carbon possibly with some kevlar bits and should hopefully have the hull started and finished within a few months ready for fitting out and sailing in the winter.
-
The Fifes, are quite special, I had a sail on Mariquita when the fife regatta was in Largs last year, and it was completely different from any other boat I have sailed on.
If you were worrying about depth you could always get a short dagger board made up for when you are sailing in shallow venues, a centreboard would be quite a pain to get right and would likely add a lot of weight to the build.
-
yeah a short daggerboard sounds like a good idea. I will hopefully be sailing aboard sunshine a schooner built to the fife plans in 2003 so that should be amazing.
-
you could always get a short dagger board made up for when you are sailing in shallow venues
I'd consider a rectangular "case" and have a semi drop in cassette type arrangement for the foil with a sacrificial foam crash box behind it That way if you did hit something solid then the arrangement could be replaced and there's be very low risk of compromising the watertightness of the real case. Everything else, board tip, trailing edge, crash box is pretty easy to fix.
The trouble with pivoting boards on any really fast boat is that:-
- any arrangement that will hold the board down at 20knots is going to be so solid that something will break anyway if you hit the rocks and
- you'll not be able to lift the board in stromg winds - angling it back very much will make the handling impossible so you'll end up with the board full down all the time no matter how worried you are about the depth...
-
I will probably keep the boat in plymouth sound so theres plenty of water. Depth only becomes a problem past the tamar bridge and thats only at low tide so im sure i will be fine most of the time. I will just go with the normal deep daggerboard arangement. Anyway cheers for your helps guys, im off to greece sailing laser 4k's and hobies for a week.
-
You appear to have a busy summer with all the offshore and inshore sailing.
You may be better waiting for the E5 mould which is tried and tested to become available. That will save you a lot of time turning the banshee frames into a mould. And saves all that time fairing.
When you know what you are doing we could put a sticky weekend together and help your build along the road.
You will learn a lot by sailing other Cherubs.
-
Phil K knows what he is doing and has put together a great boat from the E5 mould. If you want a tried and tested soulution then your best bet would be to hold out for that mould. If you do fancy taking another route, I have frames which you are welcome to. However, it will be a lot of work to build a functional mould from them. That may be your thing but from what you have said, I would guess you want a mould quickly, in which case building a mould from frames probably wouldnt suit you. There are a lot of options open to you and there are several people on this forum who will show you the way.
-
I notice you mention that you are doing a lot of regattas in France and one in Barcelona. How about collecting the Slug mould from Paris?
-
Hi Jake,
The current moulds in existence I know of are:
E6 - Belongs to Cookie, booked up for many months - 2 boats. Also probably not available to use.
E5 - Belongs to Lucy and me, booked up for many months. It is on the Isle of Wight and is in use for the moment. 1 or 2 boats.
Slug - Belongs to the class. In Paris but available for collection any time (pending the approval of the committee). Not in amazing shape but probably good for another boat after a little bit of work. This is probably your best bet if you want a mould in a hurry. You must join the association first though. It is quite an old design now.
For something more up to date, but needing more work, the Banshee frames offered above might be best. There is not much to choose between the modern narrow hulls.
Can I add to this list the Cardinal Sin moulds that are owned by Rich Taylor. The Cardinal Sin is very similiar to a Slug, but with a little more buoyancy on the back. They are female moulds, designed for a production Cherub that was a candidate at the women's olympic skiff trials.
I don't know if Hartley Laminates ever produced moulds as well?
Info about the Cardinal Sin here: http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/designs/cardinal_sin (http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/designs/cardinal_sin)
-
You appear to have a busy summer with all the offshore and inshore sailing.
You may be better waiting for the E5 mould which is tried and tested to become available. That will save you a lot of time turning the banshee frames into a mould. And saves all that time fairing.
When you know what you are doing we could put a sticky weekend together and help your build along the road.
You will learn a lot by sailing other Cherubs.
Phil, don't you think it would be better for the class if there was a good Banshee mould made. I appreciate everyone likes to defend there design choices ( I am after all doing the same thing with this statement ). It's just it would be better for all if there was more choice and more moulds around. At the risk of getting this post taken off the board again. It is a shame that my Banshee mould was not built to the standards that I was expecting when I funded it. So we wouldn't be discussing this.
Considering the way the reasons this boat is going to be built ie; as a business portfolio example, I would have thought it would actually better to build the mould as well. To show a full skill set to potential customers.
Because of the commercial nature of the build you will have to contact David Lee to get his agreement for the use of his lines, but I am happy for you to go ahead as long as the mould was available to class members to use ( after your dad's business has built your boat obviously ). I'm sure David would be happy also.
-
Phil, don't you think it would be better for the class if there was a good Banshee mould made. I appreciate everyone likes to defend there design choices ( I am after all doing the same thing with this statement ). It's just it would be better for all if there was more choice and more moulds around. At the risk of getting this post taken off the board again. It is a shame that my Banshee mould was not built to the standards that I was expecting when I funded it. So we wouldn't be discussing this.
It would be nice to have another mould in the class, we seem to have reached a maximum capacity for the moulds we have available. Given that both the E5 and E6 moulds are in use for the immediate future. With only two moulds in use this puts a limit on the number of new boats built and thus the expansion of the class. I wish I had finished a mould myself but got cold feet about starting from absolute scratch on a first boat!
Back on topic. If time is tight then it sounds like your best bet at the moment would be the Cardinal Sin mould if you can get hold of it. There is a deck mould as well but you may decide not to use that if you want a deck layout like the most recent boats.
-
This is true, not sure what the state of play is with the Cardinal Sin mould (but they are well finished female mould for hull, deck and mast support so this would be the quickest and easiest way to build a boat for certain. These moulds belong to Richard Taylor, I can PM you his details if you are interested.
I personally feel that the deck layout of the Cardinal Sin is excellent, I find Badgers is the most comfortable 05 Cherub I have ever sailed and also the flanges give you a large area for bonding, which makes it easier to build.
-
The only thing I have noticed about the Cardinal Sin layout is that the racks cant take the shroud loads. All the recent boats have the shrouds outboard on the front rack support. Both have been proven to work so I doubt it is an issue but something to think about. I have not sailed a Cardinal Sin but the deck layout does look user friendly.
-
Daryl,
I have nothing against there being a banshee mould produced and didn't intend to infer that by my statement. It is a shame that the original mould didn't survive as we would have had more choice for new members to build from.
My reason for suggesting The E5 mould was that it already exists, it is privately owned and available subject to the owner's consent and that the next boat to come of it will be collected in early June. It doesn't take long for a professonal builder to turn out a shell so depending on other commitments it could be available in July if a second boat has been ordered.
By that time and with the right skills the frames could be turned into a mould but this would take a lot of time which with the greatest respect I detected that Jake didn't have.
-
This is only because the original boats from the mould were built for a specific purpose, to go to the Olympic Womans Skiff Trials. Having the wings easily removable meant that they could fit more boats in a container, which for mass production, was a big thing. There is no reason that using the moulds you could not bond in carbon wings into the structure and then have your shroud points outside on the racks. Whether this is necessary or not, I do not think it is.
-
A relatively quick way of building a female mould would be to take a "splash" of an existing boat, perhaps if a banshee or other modern boat owner were to make their boat available, a hull mould could be made quickly.
-
The only thing I have noticed about the Cardinal Sin layout is that the racks cant take the shroud loads. All the recent boats have the shrouds outboard on the front rack support. Both have been proven to work so I doubt it is an issue but something to think about. I have not sailed a Cardinal Sin but the deck layout does look user friendly.
Umm... I know of one that peeled the racks.
-
May I ask which one?
-
I'm not being punchy... but I'm not sure I'm at liberty to say.
-
Ok. Well I'm not sure what 'peeled the racks' means, but one of the racks did come off the Badger at one end due to a bolt parting company, but a quick screw back up and it was good to go. As a plus point though, the racks were removed from Subtle Knife for the nationals last year so that the boat could be put on a narrow double stacker. So every cloud...
Regardless of this, If the boat was built with more conventional Cherub methods (rather than more SMODDY techniques) then it really is not an issue for a new build.
-
Sorry I wasn't commenting on 'Cardinal Sin' designs when I said racks that hold rig loads had peeled. It was a none SMOD technique boat rack that pinged.
I'm much happier going on to the hull than the racks with the rig loads. Even if the shroud base is narrow. Long term I think it will be better.
-
What does peeled the racks mean?
Which boat did that?
-
The shroud base of the Cardinal Sin is wider than most 'narrow' boats as with the deck flanges they are further outboard. I could measure them to see exactly, but I do know that the gap between deck and rack is definitely smaller than most.
-
A relatively quick way of building a female mould would be to take a "splash" of an existing boat, perhaps if a banshee or other modern boat owner were to make their boat available, a hull mould could be made quickly.
With permission from the relevant parties (Kevin, Paul, Aardvark), you could flop another mould off the E6 plug.
-
I'm not sure I really like the overuse of the expression "flop off a mould" as its not as quick, cheap and easy as it sounds!! You've probably heard of countless stories of people having to break the plug out of a mould to release it... and that isn't really an option when the plug is someone's pride and joy! It is an option... but you'd better be pretty confident you're going to get it right! Companies don't spend lots of money on zero shrink tooling resins for nothing.
-
Considering all options I think the Cardinal Sin is your best bet, for the following reasons:
- The mould is available immediately (subject to Rich's blessing)
- If your Dad's company want to show production capability he will probably need to use a female mould#
- The Cardinal Sin was designed to be a production boat and has a very professional finish, rather than a "one-off" finish
-
I'm not being punchy... but I'm not sure I'm at liberty to say.
The only boat that I know of which has lost a rack is mine, is there some other wing disaster that is not in the public domain that you are talking about?
-
The leading strut of my wing parted company with the deck post (I used to have a photo but I cant find it now) last year as I experimented with rig tension and was driving the boat harder - I wouldnt class it as anywhere near a wing disaster or peeling (although I'm not sure what that means either !) as everything stayed in place courtesy of the tension strut below the wing.
Anyway, all repaired now by cookie, quickly, invisibly and without quibble free ! As we sail largely experimental boats my view is that these things happen from time to time, and all you need from the builder is to learn from it and fix it up, we're lucky to have that facility in Aardvark at least !
-
wow, i didn't know i would kick up such a fuss. I have literally only just gotten back from Greece, Change of plan at my dads end because they wanted to start building last week we couldn't get them the frames or a mould quick enough. Because they are using heat curing pre-preg they will need a female mould as a male mould would be too much of a hassle to release the dried carbon from. Im a little unsure about what to do currently as there seem to be a number of different suggestions flying around. Instead of being built now to show the companys skills in creating a complicated product at short notice they are now going to use the build of a boat to train a semi-skilled apprentice in the use of carbon, or something like that. I will speak to my dad again about what the best course of action would be. Thanks everyone for being so helpful, when i find my card i shall set up a paypal account to join the class association.
-
Sounds like Cardinal Sin is still the way forward if you are needing a female mould. Good luck.
-
The Cardinal Sin mould is available now! And has been since you first posted. If you're serious about this I suggest you press on before it's too late.
-
Hi Jake,
Hope Greece was good. You don't need to have a paypal account to pay by paypal: These days you can just put in your credit card details.
If heat-cured prepreg is the idea then you need to check with Tim Noyce and Rich Taylor (both on this forum) about the temps used and whether the mould can cope with this. All the male moulds are wood and not suited to extensive heating.
-
Tim is active on the forum. But Rich posts very rarely, not since February, so I suggest you contact him by email. If you PM any of the committee we will give you Rich's contact details.
-
TheE5 mould is still looking good ( and is nicely waxed up now for easy release ) - apart from the rather horrible STICKY tacky tape left on from last time it was used ( you know who you are ! ) . The shell for John H will be done by early next week. Build slots will be available in a few weeks for more shells...
Andy P
-
- apart from the rather horrible STICKY tacky tape left on from last time it was used ( you know who you are ! ) .
:-[ sorry :-[