UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: daryl_wilkinson on September 24, 2009, 01:43:26 PM
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A question for Dan and Graham...
you guys have main halyards. Do you have difficulty getting Hyde sails up the mast? Currently I'm having a nightmare with both my mains jamming in the track at just after the 3rd batten. Where the luff curve comes into play. I've had the sails up, but with the application of 6 foot something mate with hands like spades guiding the bolt rope, whilst I haul on the halyard. As neither my son is 6 foot or has hands like spades I can see that this could be a problem with our future Cherub sailing. I am currently contemplating a block on the head of the main to create a 2:1 purchase. Got any other pearls?
Uppers are on, matching luff cure. Lowers are set, holding mast quite straight. No D2's on as yet.
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I used to have halyards on my selden masts. They were 2:1 and it went up ok. Wasn't easy but made it possible. I didn't use a block on the sail, the eyelet in the sail was big and smooth enough without and also meant you could hoist the sail higher on the mast.
I don't have a main halyard on the CST though. It's easier rigging without it. Have a zip luff so can get the jib and kite on with the boat upright, and then just rock it over to get the main up and shackle to the mast tip.
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Dan has a main halyard, but it's such an arse that we rarelty use it! The general policy is to just roll it over, pull it down and shackle it on, Cherub Style.
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I have restricted space and rough concrete where I rig so I use a 2:1 halyard with no problems , it has a loop at the bottom that I put onto a rack so it will not slip.
No block on the main though just a smooth forged shackle.
Just got a zip luff jib and am trying to decide the best way to rig it up
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After being roped in to help graham get his main up, i can say it is not an easy task and requires quite a bit of grunt! But to get around the 6 foot tall problem your son could stand on the deck like eddie, assuming he also weighs nothing!
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Phil, this is my jib setup...
Its a turning block which has a t-terminal one end, and the forestay wire spliced onto the other. The jib halyard runs through the block so you have 2 loose ends. When I am rigging, I tie the 2 loose ends onto my boat breaker to pull on the tension, attach the forestay and then take the boat breaker off. I then tie one end of the halyard to the top of the sail and zip the other end into the jib, hoist the sail and then take the loose end round through the forestay chainplate, under the kite sock and through to a clam cleat which I have on the floor. This then acts as a jib cunningham. The excess tucks into a pocket on the underside of the sock.
I'll get an actual photo of it this weekend if you like as I know my MS Paint skills are a bit ropey... and I dont have time to make you a 3D cad model this second!!
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Dans boat has also required several track iterations and a (i thnk) a bolt rope repair. As the mis-match between mast and luff contributes almost of the sail shape then where you are jamming you are pulling a very curvy thing along a stiff striaght thing.
If your track and mast become separate items then the mass concensus is to use Plexus. If you would rather pay £15 (inc £5 delivery) for a tube than chandlers rate then the BMG has a trade account with an industrial glue supplier that members are welcome to take advantage of. If it goes horribly wrong BMG also has spare track available at the cost I pay for replacing the stock.
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Thanks for replies.
After cocking around this afternoon with various methods I have come to the conclusion that I will roll the boat as I always used to. Which is a pain as it would have been nice to just put the sails up like everyone else. Especially as the extra complication of wide wings... I'll have to make some protective covers for my stubbies!
Tried Luke on the fordeck, still no good.
Might go 2:1 with shackle / block ( didn't work that well this afternoon ), but it is more likely that I will make up a wire strop and bond or rivet on a metal vee cleat a foot down from the top of the mast with an external halyard. Jam the wire strop ferrule in to it. This is more to allow me to get the main down in tricky situations. Works well on the 'Splash' we have. Think I should replace the sheave box wheel with a metal one?
Phil what haylard rope are you using? Mine is kevlar but still stretches a bundle.
As for zip luff jib mine is rigged like this...
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I think the main halyard is 4mm SK75 dynema as a 2:1 I have not noticed any stretch. Have you sprayed your track and bolt rope with dry lube? makes a huge difference hoisting the sail, also helps the sail move when you release the Cunningham.
If you have Kevlar, then get it off you boat it will snap without warning, just terrible stuff.
For the Jib luff I was thinking of doing what Daryl has but was also thinking of a slightly more complex plan that avoided most of the tying. I will do a drawing some time.
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Kevin uses old wetsuit boots to protect the stubs of his wide-winged SK4.
For narrow wings the neatest protection I have seen is a bit of guttering on Monkey at the Nats.
Just a theory, but it seems like the problem of getting these mains up is down to the big luff curve having to go past the straight bit of mast. If you were to put the main up before you put the rig tension on (but the uppers are on) then the lower mast will have more bend than in sailing trim. That + drylube + 2:1 might take it from impossible to possible.
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Love the dinghy boots idea!
Phil is you SK75 4mm without a polyester cover? Like Robline Ocean 3000. Or is it with a cover like Robline dinghy control? Just asking as I have two cam cleats to hold the kevlar halyard ( which came on the mast, and may have snapped already inside the cover, come to thing of it, hence the stretch.) So I was thinking of going up a size to 5mm 'dinghy control' so the core is 4mm if yours is the uncovered version. Basically so I don't have to put a hook on the mast so I can adjust down for reefing.
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Covered 4mm Dyneema should be fine. Most of the selden masts come with a covered Kevlar rope for their halyards which is really strong stuff and can assure you that it doesn't stretch (bit of an incident having tied a wayfarer onto a double stacker so when we winched the trailer down all the load was going through the kevlar... there was a severely bent trailer but the rope was fine!) but as Phil says, it can snap without warning so best avoided.
Also, most of the time when people say that there Halyards are stretching, they're not.. its just slipping in the cleat. Mark the rope in the cleat with a pen just to be sure.
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I have noticed that RS 700's use 4mm SK75 as a 2:1 halyard without cover and it cleats fine in jamming cleats. Semi full battened sails so they don't have a problem with getting a curved sail up a straight track.
Sarah's byte C2 has an unstayed mast so the curved sail goes up the mast relatively easily. This mast has a jamming cleat at the top to reduce compression on the mast. The halyard can be flicked out of the cleat with the boat upright to drop the sail. My previous experience with rope halyards on other classes are that the cleat will wear and the halyard will start slipping. When the wire halyard on my ent broke 3 years ago i replaced it with 3.5mm vectran (similar to SK75). instead of a cleat I continued to use the hook rack on the side of the mast. No problems so far.
I have not considered putting a halyard on E-numbers but I don't have any rigging restrictions at Thornbury. I feel that the boat once rigged is much safer on it's side anyway.
If I had to remove the main in the water (for instance for a tow/ rescue) I would remove it from the top of the mast roll it up and put in the boat. A halyard would be one more peice of rope in the way for this particular event. i had to do this once with Slippery at Weymouth it was much harder doing this in the water than on land so i doubt anyone with a curvy 05 rig would be able to pull the sail down the track.
Rack protectors do sound like a good idea for rigging.
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Also, most of the time when people say that there Halyards are stretching, they're not.. its just slipping in the cleat. Mark the rope in the cleat with a pen just to be sure.
Thanks Tim. It really isn't slipping in the cleat.
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I feel that the boat once rigged is much safer on it's side anyway.
Most definitely. Mine tries to jump of the trolley in the slightest wind. Which is really why I want to be able to get the sails up and down without a bag of hassle. Coming off the water, taking a wide rack off while keeping the boat under control and then rolling over, kind of gets in the way of getting some lunch and then going out again for the afternoon race!
If I had to remove the main in the water (for instance for a tow/ rescue) I would remove it from the top of the mast roll it up and put in the boat. A halyard would be one more peice of rope in the way for this particular event. i had to do this once with Slippery at Weymouth it was much harder doing this in the water than on land so i doubt anyone with a curvy 05 rig would be able to pull the sail down the track.
I did this in Plymouth in 02? When I had 'Fluffy'. No halyard. Swim out to mast head. Un-tie. Pull down. Jam in sail track. Try pulling the other way. Jam in track. Sail half out of track at top of mast and bottom of mast. Very long tow home on side in an attempt to save sail from destruction. Unfortunately I have a sneaking suspicion that the mast dragging periodically in the water may have contributed to it snapping a few months later on Neil Thomas. :(
I'd quite like a main halyard that works.
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I did this in Plymouth in 02?
We have had to do this twice in Exultant (once for each outing) and a few times in slippy. If you have a plasitc track the bolt rope will peel out under load, pull the top out and then the jump will run down the entire length. This can result in the track comming away (not since plexus) but does not seem to have hurt either the track or the bolt rope.
I would not suggest doing this as routine >:(, but knowing if/ifnot your sail will do this if it sticks is a possible bonus, especially when really knackered in and caught in swell.
The racked boats are also easier for the cb ballast to stay attached to the board - the crew can grab the gunwals (sp?) and the rack for stability. This makes getting the sail off a little less fraught as the mast tip is not sinking and you can both see each other the whole time.
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The Halyard I use is un-covered 4mm so that all the material is low stretch and doing something. I went for the hook and loop to avoid the slopping.
I spliced a cover onto it at the high wear parts to protect from chafe, but this is probably not necessary.
Have you got a strap to tie the boat to the trolley? makes a surprising difference.
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Sorry Daryl, been away with work.
My main halyard is a pain in the **** - for the reasons you stated, the curve in the sail is too much to get up a stiff mast about half way up it gets very difficult.
It used to jump the track on the way up, so i had the boltrope padded at the sail head, it still does sometimes (plastic track) and because I had the boltrope padded that addes extra friction.
Basically it all doesnt work well, but, then I go sailing at brighlingsea which at anything other than high tide is mud heaven, the halyard has been a godsend.
I will be redoing it all over the winter, but I will retain the halyard - its BEST use is actually for recovery, main comes doen quick with no rolling, and with the zip luff jib we're derigged before everyone else has found a helper to roll - and it saves all the scuffs you get on the wing bars.
I suspect a 2:1 on the main halyard will make it work ok.
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I have just spoken to Chris Henderson from Blue Marine, he said Musto skiffs all suffer from the same thing.
There is a new product on the market from Bainbridge Aqua Baton it's called Metric Extruded Vinyl Rope.
It comes in 4,5,6 or 7 mm at about 60p meter. This does not compress and pull out of the track. in order to retro fit a main the baton gaurds must be taken off and the sail re done . He will do this for approx £75 and it will take a couple of hours . This has worked so well for the Musto's that Hydes are now using it in all their new sails. May be worth some consideration for anyone who needs/wants halyards.
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Simon... you're a star!
I'll be giving him a ring.
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Have you got a strap to tie the boat to the trolley? makes a surprising difference.
Well a bit of rope. My trolleys not very heavy either.
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Chris works in Rayleigh essex and will often do the work while you wait which saves two trips.his no. is 01268 785500 He used to work for Hydes and his last job for us was repairing the Simon shapped hole in the main.
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it can snap without warning so best avoided.
It had snapped. I pulled the last ten inches out of the cover.
Phil do you use McLube? Holt? or the really expensive German stuff I can't remember the name off that has nano technology, supposedly?
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I have just spoken to Chris Henderson from Blue Marine, he said Musto skiffs all suffer from the same thing.
There is a new product on the market from Bainbridge Aqua Baton it's called Metric Extruded Vinyl Rope.
It comes in 4,5,6 or 7 mm at about 60p meter. This does not compress and pull out of the track. in order to retro fit a main the baton gaurds must be taken off and the sail re done . He will do this for approx £75 and it will take a couple of hours . This has worked so well for the Musto's that Hydes are now using it in all their new sails. May be worth some consideration for anyone who needs/wants halyards.
That price sounds a little steep from a trade point of view. The hourly labour rate sounds about right but to change a bolt rope can be done very easily in under an hour. Its a good soloution to getting a poorly designed sail to work better mind.
Hoppy's top tip of the day... try bartering with the sailmaker... prices on repairs are almost never fixed you'll get yourself a better deal!
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it can snap without warning so best avoided.
It had snapped. I pulled the last ten inches out of the cover.
Phil do you use McLube? Holt? or the really expensive German stuff I can't remember the name off that has nano technology, supposedly?
I usually use the McLube, run it down the track and also give a spray to the bolt rope every now and then.
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I have just spoken to Chris Henderson from Blue Marine, he said Musto skiffs all suffer from the same thing.
There is a new product on the market from Bainbridge Aqua Baton it's called Metric Extruded Vinyl Rope.
It comes in 4,5,6 or 7 mm at about 60p meter. This does not compress and pull out of the track. in order to retro fit a main the baton gaurds must be taken off and the sail re done . He will do this for approx £75 and it will take a couple of hours . This has worked so well for the Musto's that Hydes are now using it in all their new sails. May be worth some consideration for anyone who needs/wants halyards.
That price sounds a little steep from a trade point of view. The hourly labour rate sounds about right but to change a bolt rope can be done very easily in under an hour. Its a good soloution to getting a poorly designed sail to work better mind.
Hoppy's top tip of the day... try bartering with the sailmaker... prices on repairs are almost never fixed you'll get yourself a better deal!
OK if you insist, but how about getting back to me about the sail cloth and dacron tape order first! ;)
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sorry will get on it today ;)
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I was at an exhibition at the NEC today and found a compay called Ambersil who produce a couple of dry PTFE lubrication sprays which should be ideal for those stiff mast tracks and general parts which should be slippy slidy but are not. As PTFE is hydrophilic it may also breath some life into old kites and generally reduce friction.
So, in essence, two free cans of food grade dry PTFE lube for testing, first come first serve. Send me an Email is you want one and post something positive if it works OK. You can buy the stuff from RS, or bearing distributors like Brammer and Eriks (formerly WYKO) for about £7 per can which is a bit cheaper than the normal sailing spray lubes.
Also, if anyone wants some funky, bright coloured, padded tape for their tiller extensions I have loads of Gray Nicholls hockey stick grip tape in the offing free to good homes.
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Now have 2:1 SK75 main halyard & Dry lube.
It's all nice and slideee......
The luff now jumps the track!
BOLLOCKS!
( that's not swearing, it's Old English for small ball and also means 'clergyman' ( see 'Sex Pistols' case transcript: http://www.acc.umu.se/~samhain/summerofhate/courtcase.html ) and is a naval term for a pulley block at the top of a mast, also known as a bullock block. So it quite literally is Bollocks!
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YEEEEEEEEHARRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE PERSON MAIN HOISTING IS IN OPERATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't even have to guide the luff into the feeder!!!!!!!!
2:1 halyard and new VINYL bolt rope / tube. It ROCKS! Many thanks Simon for putting me on to that. I recommend those having halyard problems to do this!