UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Sailing Stories => Topic started by: daryl_wilkinson on July 14, 2009, 06:42:23 PM
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Lets hope the RYA and the The Marine Accident Investigation Branch can come up with something to reduce the risks of such a terrible accident happening again.
Unlikely. The only thing that would help in situations like this is mandatory carrying of 'Spare Air'. And I can't see that happening. My sympathies to the family.
On a slightly different note. If you carried 'Spare Air' could it count as lead in our rules?
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i split this thread to avoid this separate discussion impacting on the purpose of the other, i hope you don't mind Daryl
But you do pose an interesting point, it would certainly be allowed to be included in your 50kg if it was a permanently attached feature, like a boat stereo system for example... but the fact it is removable makes it a difficult one, would this fall under spirit of the rules, if a competitor always carried a piece of safety equipment and had to have it there to race legally, and did, they would gain no advantage so it would seem silly not to allow it..
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That is inline with the discussions we had regarding carrying rocket flares that are "permenant". i.e. if you use them then you have retired form any racing and if included in the measurement weight they must be carried. Am still trying to work out where they will be housed on ALLC.
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Daryl's bought up an interesting point about 'spare air' but it's not really as simple as all that. As a Helicopter Crewman, I carry a 'STASS' Bottle (Short Term Air Supply System) with me both when flying over water or indeed when at the end of the winch. It's part of my Life Preserver and is attached with a lanyard; this is the only way you can get to it when you need it! In addition, we have to take regular trips down to the Underwater Escape Training Facility down at Yeovilton to practice using it as it's not just a case of sticking it in you mouth and breathing. When upside down (which you probably will be) water collects at the back of your mouth and in the mouthpeice, and has to be purged - not an easy task. Then there's the visual side of things unless of course you're sailing in the Caribean (I wish), seeing underwater to disentangle yourself or your crew/helm is almost impossible even with the aid of a mask (more weight). Rescues have to be carried out by feel - safety boat crews won't know the layout of your particular dinghy and only the crew will know what it is that's possibly snagging you.
I think the moral of this tale is that unless the RYA are going to build Regional Inversion Tanks where we can go to practice entrapment escapes, we need to keep our dinghies as minimalistic as possible and learn to make the decision to get off the wire early rather than later.
Anyone know if there's an accident report out for the Laser 4000 entrapment last year?
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There was a report on it and I seem to remember there was a kink in a shroud or lower when the boat was recovered and it was assumed a trapeze hook got stuck.
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I could not find a report on the maib website, however there is reference to a
RYA article (http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/lessonstobelearnedfromdinghytragedyreport.aspx) on their website.
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Daryl's bought up an interesting point about 'spare air' but it's not really as simple as all that. As a Helicopter Crewman, I carry a 'STASS' Bottle (Short Term Air Supply System) with me both when flying over water or indeed when at the end of the winch. It's part of my Life Preserver and is attached with a lanyard; this is the only way you can get to it when you need it! In addition, we have to take regular trips down to the Underwater Escape Training Facility down at Yeovilton to practice using it as it's not just a case of sticking it in you mouth and breathing. When upside down (which you probably will be) water collects at the back of your mouth and in the mouthpeice, and has to be purged - not an easy task. Then there's the visual side of things unless of course you're sailing in the Caribean (I wish), seeing underwater to disentangle yourself or your crew/helm is almost impossible even with the aid of a mask (more weight). Rescues have to be carried out by feel - safety boat crews won't know the layout of your particular dinghy and only the crew will know what it is that's possibly snagging you.
I think the moral of this tale is that unless the RYA are going to build Regional Inversion Tanks where we can go to practice entrapment escapes, we need to keep our dinghies as minimalistic as possible and learn to make the decision to get off the wire early rather than later.
Anyone know if there's an accident report out for the Laser 4000 entrapment last year?
(No Probs MK.)
With out doubt you are the expert in this area Dave, so I am in no way suggest anything else. But if I decided to take a 'Spare Air' on the boat surely it would mitigate the risks further even if I had not gone through the training you have had to. Of course I'd have tried it in the bath first. :-) Most entrapment issues seem to happen very close to the hull and I would imagine with a element of movement foreseeable by the trapped crew member. It's just that you can't get to the air space under the hull. I would of thought 'Spare Air' in all but the most terrible of situations... I don't know, upside down hung up on the spreaders ( god know how you'd have got there! ) would help.
Anyway it was more to do with the loop hole ( if you can call it that ) in the rules about the term 'permenant'. Being a slightly over protective parent of a 12 year old I was just considering having one of these 'Spare Air' things. As me and 'might mouse' are likely to be seeing the underside of our boat quite a lot.
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Whilst trying to reduce risk in anything we do is a lord-able pursuit, it should not be forgotten that tragedy is a part of all human endeavour.
Risk is an inescapable part of life. We face risk every moment of our lives. It is an individual choice to weigh those risks up.
While I feel that the idea of carrying air is a good one for some I think it should not become part of the rules of any class. Personally I think carrying air would be counter productive for me as I would be fumbling around for something I do not know how to use.
As it is we have safety measures which have varying degrees of usefulness.
Compartments in a hull very important and a great safety measure.
Buoyancy aids. Does anyone else think these are not all they are cracked up to be? Mine spends most of its time trying to float off my head.
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Risk is an inescapable part of life. We face risk every moment of our lives. It is an individual choice to weigh those risks up.
Well said Dave - Darwin would be proud.
Safety Equipment needs to taken seriously if you're going to use it. In my job we regularly float around in a pool testing our kit even though it's highly unlikely that we'll crash our helicopter into the sea (touch carbon!). Can you imagine the passengers for Ryanair Flight 2278 carrying out pool drills before boarding their flight to Malaga????
Having said that, when was the last time we took our speed machines out onto the water and just practiced getting wet to see if our kit works?(actually last weekend for us - see Argument Clinic thread). As to Bouancy Aids, it took me ages to find just the right one, I now have a stock of barely used ones that didn't make the grade that I need to sell on to an Enterprise crew.
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Having read through the RYA Report into the Laser 4000 accident (http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/marketing/Web%20Documents/Final%20report.pdf) I think that having a sealed mast to slow inversion would be a good idea, there could also be an argument for PBO rigging so that it could be cut if you were trapped on a shroud or lower.
Also if the person is trapped but talking then trying to keep the boat in the same position for the time it takes for help to arrive may be better than trying to help and risking inversion.
I think both crew should carry a sharp knife that can be reached and opened with one (preferably either) hand. I prefer a sheith knife that can also be put away with one hand so that you can cut, move/untangle and cut again. Many of the easy open folding knifes on the market are difficult to close so either pose a hazard after opening or just have to be dropped.
If you were going to carry spare air then you would have to be trained and practice, with it, the stream of bubbles when you purge the mouthpiece could induce panic if you had not experianced it.
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Beans' C Tech is sealed, i don't think we have ever turtled her, it certainly helps, so much so that tom has to lean into the boat to stop it righting when stood on the board if i am retrieving the kite as a result of the extra bouancy
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Born Slippy's Me-Tech is sealed. Really sealed, it has two drainiage holes at the stump and 4 rivet holes at the goose and no other penetrations.
This weekend we proved that in a 5-6 with a good tide running she turtles like the best of them...
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Having read through the RYA Report into the Laser 4000 accident (http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/marketing/Web%20Documents/Final%20report.pdf) I think that having a sealed mast to slow inversion would be a good idea, there could also be an argument for PBO rigging so that it could be cut if you were trapped on a shroud or lower.
Also if the person is trapped but talking then trying to keep the boat in the same position for the time it takes for help to arrive may be better than trying to help and risking inversion.
I think both crew should carry a sharp knife that can be reached and opened with one (preferably either) hand. I prefer a sheith knife that can also be put away with one hand so that you can cut, move/untangle and cut again. Many of the easy open folding knifes on the market are difficult to close so either pose a hazard after opening or just have to be dropped.
If you were going to carry spare air then you would have to be trained and practice, with it, the stream of bubbles when you purge the mouthpiece could induce panic if you had not experianced it.
I agree with everything you have said here Phil.
My point is (and I'm not asking for a rule change for mandatory carrying of any safety equipment ) that if I chose to carry 'Spare Air' ( and of course I would do a training course to keep all you strangely bi-polar Hindu Darwin fatalists / ultra compliant authority lovers hair on ) could it be classed as part of my lead!
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Would the air be on your person or in the boat at a fixed point?
if it is at fixed point how would it help?
If not it would deffinately be unfare advantage.
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Really interesting thread guys!
If the other person on the boat was trapped, I don't think it would be a good idea to try taking "spair are" to him . In previous incidents fatalities have accoured to the person who tried diving down to assist, rather than to the original trapee.
Dave, on another note, I'm interested to know what buoyancy aid you now use.
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It's a Gul Garda. It doesn't look like it would support a hamster but it works a treat on a chunkster like me.
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If I was going to carry 'air' I'm not sure where I would keep it. Could be just behind my center tower so there is a chance the trapped crew member could reach it? Could be cut into the underside of the gantry so it is accessible if the boat is turtled by the other crew member? Don't know. As for the rescuer paying the ultimate price, so be it, you'll understand when you have kids. The only difference being at least I have some oxygen with me! If it's my son trying to save me, hopefully I would have briefed him well enough for him not to bother.
At least this thread has clarified one thing for me. None of you manly bunch are going to jump in after me! ;D
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At least this thread has clarified one thing for me. None of you manly bunch are going to jump in after me! ;D
Dazza, I agree the safest way to avoid the issue is to never put the boat in the water, but just can't follow your examplar lead of this approach ::)
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Hey unfair! ;)
I can't help it if Scumbags nick my trailer and it has to built twice along with the cradles, boat builders don't do what they have told and have to do it again and again and again, and sail makers file your order in the ash tray of the car! Crazy chandelers go off on one and try and stiff you for an incomplete fittings order which was competitivly quoted against other suppliers! Can I!
And err... not to mention the credit crunch.... Advertising not been doing to well recently :(
But you are right I'm well known for no participation in risky sports...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=12517 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=12517)
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So drunk that you couldn't walk? (and even your camera tipped over!)
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????????????
you mean the pics on the 'Cosmique Arete'? Or the Petite Vert? It can be challenging taking pictures in those environments, establishing a perfect horizon was not top of my mind.
Would you prefer some pics of me Paragliding instead? Red Bull and Vodka gives you wings.
edit: Ahhhh..... sorry I get it now.... being a bit thick. Yes getting home from the local last winter was a terrible job!
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An interesting thread.
I support the notion of carrying safety equipment and now don't believe a simple folding knife in the pocket of your buoyancy aid is sufficient.
I don't think the class rules should determine what safety equipment should be carried by a crew because this could infer that if an incident occured the class could be made partially responsible. It is a personal decision to fit or carry safety equipment (appart from buoyancy aids which are mandated by clubs as part of their rules).
Equipment attached to the boat is only usefull if it is in reach from the entrapped position.
As Dave infers without the experience of the situation and training to use the equipment you have you will not get much if any benefit from your safety equipment.
I would expect that a normal person might hold their breath for about 15 seconds at best before panicking after an unexpected dunking.
I think access to air would have to be imeadiate and is best carried on your person. If anyone has done scuba diving, the drill to recover a lost mouth peice, purge it and start breathing normally takes a few seconds when you are calm. It would not be so easy if you were trapped and panicking.
After reading the other posts.
I would ( and plan to) carry a knife on my person that I can get at quickly, one handed.
I also plan to try and keep my boat simple without too many potential snaggs.
I tried to make Slippery's mast sealed filling the holes around shroud terminals with silicone sealant. This was partly successful. The boat can turtle quite quickly but does so more in waves. I will certainly try sealing the current mast more efffectively because it should help. Most unballasted boats will turttle in waves and those with false floors and without side tanks are more prone. Boats with only side tanks and no floor tanks are more likely to stay turtled which can make matters worse. They at least have an air pocket when upside down.
No ideal answer springs to mind. We take a calculated risk everytime we go afloat.
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I think I'd like to make a rule proposal.
Something along the lines of...
Any additional safety equipment carried fixed to the hull shall constitute part to the boats minimum weight.
Any thoughts?
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The Equipment Rules of Sailing basically tell you to look at your class rules
H.7 WEIGHT MEASUREMENT
H.7.1 Conditions for Weight Measurement
The boat shall:
be dry.
be in compliance with the class rules.
4.1.7 Weight - The weight of the hull in dry condition shall not be less than 50kg. The weight shall include all permanently fixed fittings and bowsprit, but shall exclude sails, spars, standing rigging, centreboard, rudder and other loose gear.
with the current rules if your safety equipment is permanently fitted, then it would be included, however if it is loose gear it is not.
Presumably there would be some sort of bracket permanently attached to your boat that would allow for the quick release of your safety equipment if you needed to use it.
I would suggest that if you were to state that the safety equipment were always to be carried while you were racing then it could be classed as permanent and so part of the all up weight.
It is then up to you to ensure that all equipment present when the boat was weighed is present at all times when racing, if it falls off then you would have to retire from the race.
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Yes If I state that I will always carry the safety equipment on some quick release bracket, I'm sure that it could be classed as permanent. But it's a bit grey isn't it. It's the word permanently thats the problem. ( is it permanent, as in always on-board or permanent as in fixed and not removable ) If we took the same approach with other rules where would we be?
By the way this safety equipment could be distress flares, a knife or an Anchor just as much as Spare Air.
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I do not see how it is grey, if the equipment is in a bracket firmly attached to the boat and you say that it is permanent you will always have it on the boat when racing then counting it as part of the permanent fittings on the boat seems reasonable. If the equipment is rolling around the cockpit tied with a grotty bit of string then it would probably not be counted as permanent.
With the measurement of boats there has to be an element of trust of the competitor, as there is not much to stop someone from changing their boat, removing lead after measurement and cheating.
It is not possible to have an iron clad definition of permanent, i.e. is something tied on permanent? does it have to be bolted on? glued on?
If you are thinking of taking this safety equipment with you sometimes and leaving it ashore sometimes then it is not permanent and so should not count as part of your weight. If that is the case then a specific rule saying that permanent safety equipment is allowable will not help you.
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OK, so if the safety equipment was held on / down with a rope and cam-cleat for instance, is that permanent?
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I think that this is a topic which could be argued indefinitely. A permanent fixture is not one which you can remove quickly! Which is obviously bad in the case of safety equipment!
My view on the matter is, If safety really is so paramount, you wont mind carrying a few extra kilos above the minimum weight to have it on board. If the situation were to arise that you needed to use said equipment then having a down to weight boat would be the last thing on your mind, and you would be pleased that the "penalty" of carrying the extra weight had been worth while.
Just my take on the situation anyway!
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I think the situation is actually very clear:
If it is included in your measurement weight then permenant simply means you must always sail with it (i.e. it must be there for the entire race). If it falls off (or is used) you have retired.
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But you can see in the last two post two different opinions of the subject. Hence why i was looking for definition. Or the addition of a new rule or amendment of a rule.
I might add why should safety be penalized?
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I do not think safety is being penalized. Either the equipment is always going to be there when you are racing i.e. permanent or it is not.
If it is a part of the boat that can be easily detached then the onus is on you to convince the measurer that it is always going to be there and is not likely to be changed or removed.
A purpose built bracket that fits a specific bit of equipment is probably going to do that. a bag tied on with a bit of string is unlikely to.
Even if you had a specific rule about permanently attached safety equipment you would still have to convince the measurer that it was permanent.
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I do not think safety is being penalized.
It's being penalized if you take Tim's view point.
If it is a part of the boat that can be easily detached then the onus is on you to convince the measurer that it is always going to be there and is not likely to be changed or removed.
A purpose built bracket that fits a specific bit of equipment is probably going to do that. a bag tied on with a bit of string is unlikely to.
And that's not grey at all!