UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Calendar Events => Topic started by: peter_barton on December 21, 2008, 12:48:31 PM
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new thread for this one.... Who is up for it?
We are. I think Will & Lucy are? Last year there were 260 boats for this, the worlds premier Pursuit Race, and it was a fantastic 'carnival' of sail. Lets try to beat the 4 Cherub turnout of last year and help show our class off to the masses.
My understanding is that the RYA PY tech department have been in consulation with QMSC about non PY listed classes and recommended Cherubs race of PY 948 which is the current 'non listed' RYA recommendation based on returns up to and including 2007. So thats about half way between the now out of date pre 2005 number of 975 and the current class recommended number of 930.
Info; http://www.queenmary.org.uk/ (http://www.queenmary.org.uk/)
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Yes we are up for it - see you there. I'll try to make the flapjacks a bit easier to eat this year!
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the very sexy blonde will be there hoping to improve on last years result.
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Sadly the Locoists wiil have to miss this one due to work. But I can't wait to tell all our fellow sailors that they were right . 930 is not the correct handicap for a cherub it should be 948 ;D
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Any cherub sailors going to the Bloody Mary are welcome to gather round our house afterwards then down to the river for a couple of beers and a curry. We live in Sunbury 5 mins drive from QMSC, plenty of space to park car and boats and much closer than a drag across London to the Lee's which Will tells me has happened in the past. We have 2 single beds, a large couch and plenty of floor space if anyone wants to stay over.
Andy
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Sarah and i will be there but with the enterprise. The bloody mary is our practice for the following weekend at the london Boat show. We will be sailing the pursuit race in the dock next to the excel centre.
The last three times I have sailed the BM I have been within the top 30. Hoping for light winds.
I look forward to seeing you all. We are planning to see my parents after but should be able to stay for a cup of tea.
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Forecast says between 3 and one knot of wind. Nice!
http://www.windguru.cz/int/index.php?sc=77
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yep, potentially disapointing.
However, wind (14mph?) and warmer weather currently looks due for Sunday....lets hope it arrives early.
If we come (we are looking for min 8 knots to make it fun) I should hopefully be up for after race debrief by & chez the Peters and early cuzza (before racing home for the 11pm feed!).
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Fingers crossed.....
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Windguru current;y forecastin -3 (I ask you) for 9am on Saturday, with a stunning 4-6 knots.
Please Sir, may I be excused?
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Can't wait to be breaking the ice etc etc. Can I wear my shorty?
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Always good to show the flag at the big events, even if you're not going to win. With the ignorant slagging you see on the YY forum about how supposedly all Cherubs are held together with duct tape its surely good to get the sorted modern boats (as well as twenty year old ones with duct tape assistance) out on display at every possible opportunity, even if you're not going to win. Easy for me to say though: I'm not proposing to get my 20 year old Canoe out!
And in the case of the Bloody Mary, it helps everyone if people who find they aren't going to be at the top end of the fleet retire early: it saves congestion on the beach and in changing rooms. So its good manners to do half an hour or so and pack up if its cold and boring, and you still give the class some exposure.
In some ways the weather forecast doesn't look as bad as the year Flat Stanley won: that year the windchill was so extreme and the water so cold that virtually every system of the boat was frozen solid with spray when they finished. The boat was virtually underiggable (is that a word? Is now!): Guy had to get a bucket of hot water to tip over the kicker tackle, which was one solid block of ice, before they could get the main off!
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Good Luck with the BM, could we get a write up and pictures of the boats on the news page please ;)
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OK.....Thunderbirds are go!
I reconned it would take 8k+ to become increasingly competitive. However I have come around to the 6-7k forecast still being fun for a good racing challenge albeit much less than ideal and we will embrace that. If it turns out >4k it would be just too tedious in a Cherub so we will go and make a final decision at QM at 11am ish.
Could be a good day for Enterprises. Hopefully we will see you before the finish Phil !
Jim - not sure of your idea of too many people retiring early. That will help the late overtakers. We need those wind blankets to remain to hold back the 49ers and I14s.
Does anyone know - is deicer slippy on decks and sheets?
May the force be with us.
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Team Strawberry Blonde have bottled it...
I may however pop down to the road to ogle Yojimbo and generally say hello.
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It was seriously cold. I don't think I have ever been on fresh water in such weather - and I don't think I have ever been so cold. Thanks to Stu, Andy Peters, Kevin and Jo for being there when we got ashore to provide substantial aid in derigging and provision of hot drinks, flapjacks and sending me to get changed when I couldn't decide that for myself.
We arrived at 10am to find no wind, freezing weather and fog. We claim to be quite impatient with feebleness as a general rule so we didn't turn around and go home just then. A lot of umming and erring went on and in the end a 'We'll do it if you do it' attitude between us and Pete and Roz forced us all to go out.
Note to the kind Musto skiff sailor (they are all kind I find) who helped us launch: Many thanks - much appreciated.
At the start there was mist aplenty and some wind too. Roz and Pete sensibly ducked the Blaze but we were above and parked. Soon we were off again, slowly soldiering towards the top mark in windchill minus lots and shifts and puffs I didn't understand. The wind went round to the right during the first part of the race. After that I have no memories as my attention was entirely focussed on keeping the boat upright and getting to the next buoy. I even lost where we were on the reservoir at one point looking out and seeing a building far away on the other side and spending ages realising it was the club.
The weather probably deteriorated during the race. To begin with it was only ice on the floor of the boat we had to contend with, but then the water on the extension starting to freeze, sticking the leeward one to the rack. Then the control lines froze. Then the cleats froze. Then the sheets froze. Then the water in the trapeze shockcord froze preventing it from shortening. There were icicles forming on the racks and the whole interior of the boat was an icerink. I started scraping the ice off the progrip, but it would reappear immediately so I stopped in the end.
Soon we lost feeling in our feet and hands, and with no sign of a finish we decided to quit. When we got ashore everyone was fantastic - helping and taking over derigging in parts. I was worried that someone was going to die out there. I am glad it was not windy.
I am told the same team who helped us out helped Pete and Roz too, but I don't want to report it second hand.
Afterwards it was shower shower shower shower shower shower. After a while in the shower I noticed it was a bit quiet. The quiet was that I had stopped saying 'f*** f*** f*** f*** f*** f***' to continuously. I must have been doing that for ages..... Then packing up and the prizegiving: Well done everyone who went out/got round/did well.
Pete and Roz were 4th in class - top effort!
A phantom won overall. 175 boats went on the water. The local Mayor and a person from the London Boat Show said small speeches at the prizegiving. I am sorry for laughing when the Mayor said 'welcome to our beautiful area'.
After this it was to Andy and Jill Peters's for riverside curry-based foodstuffs.
Notes on coldness:
1) I do tend to get a bit colder than many people. I certainly did yesterday. I had not eaten a huge breakfast and might well have not had enough to drink either.
2) I was wearing my thicker wetsuit socks and these pinch my toes a tiny bit in my boots.
3) Those rubbery cotton builders gloves that we wear are normally fine. Yesterday they froze in the windchill when I was holding the mainsheet or extension. I wonder if marigolds might have helped. Lucy was in a better state with the ends of the fingers (of the gloves...) removed. Perhaps being out in the open allowed them to dry?
I think a combination of the above in that weather (standing in or on ice and not much moving about) is what made me so broken.
Can anyone recommend a type of wetsuit sock or boot? Please include a competing interests statement (eg "I paid full retail price" "My mum makes them and I got them free" "I make my money by selling these things" "I have longstanding discounting arrangement with this supplier".)
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(http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/cherub/2009bloodymary_roman_9.jpg)
(http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/international14/2009bloodymary_roman_10.jpg)
Pics from y and y but by Ian Roman - www.ianroman.com
PS I have written to him to say we are a cherub not a 14!
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Well done for giving it a go both teams. I think that's the iciest BM at least since the year Flat Stanley won and probably worse with no wind to work up some energy output. That year I think Guy and Alex wore drysuit and wet suit and layers!
I don't suppose there is a good solution for gloves, but are you talking about the orange semi knitted ones? If so I'm not altogether suprised they held too much water/ice. Maybe leather gloves and marigolds might be slightly less worse for such extreme conditions... Did you have enough layers on the body core do you think Will? You don't look as spherical as some of the folk. I know the Grad sailors in the last pic and I'd say they had another two layers on under the drysuits than you have.
Judging by the horizon angles on most of the photos I reckon the cameranman was even more cold-incapacitated than the competitors!
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Hmmm.
Core layers = hot top (=1mm extra neoprene) + v thick smoothskin wetsuit + Buoyancy aid + spraytop. Lucy had an additional thermofleece (=stretchy fleece with waterproof outer). I also had two thinsulate hats on!
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Its just struck me, you know, that I really haven't got that much idea what kit I should be wearing in what conditions. If there's ice about I get my hated dry suit out (or if I have't got the seals fixed don't sail!) but other than that I take a guess at how many layers I might like to have on and give up if I get cold... This really isn't a sensible approach for places bigger than my medium size reservoir and races longer than 40 mins, but I just hunted round a couple of clothing vendors websites, and there doesn't seem to be any info about what kit might be feasible for what degree of windchill... Now the science must surely be out there somewhere - there's been research on the subject for at least 60 years.
Will, I don't think what you were wearing would have been enough for me in those conditions, and I have, sadly, much better built in sub cutaneous insulation, but who knows? Peter, Roz, do you mind saying what kit you two were wearing? How did it work out, were you extremely cold, unbelievably cold or unspeakably cold?
And of course there's that nasty slippery slope where the energy lost in moving in clumsier clothing far exceeds any benefit in warmth... There ought to be some information available. I wonder if the RYA has done any research for the Olympic guys? Of course they may just adjust their sailing venue rather than clothing...
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You can get thermal builders gloves with a fleecy lining. Bit more expensive but much warmer, same grip on the outside so still good for that. They're the grey ones from my local builders centre but that may differ, hope it helps.
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Big respect to Will , Lucy , Pete and Roz, for going out there and sailing in those conditions. I was out in the car yesterday and the outside tempreture was -5. Well done all ! P.S. Dean has some really warm gloves, I'm not sure who make them but he swears by them, and he has always suffered from cold hands in winter.
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If 6mm of neoprene can't keep you warm then not much is going to. If it was a little windier you would have been more active and nice and tostie.
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Serious respect for racing in those conditions, Up here it was blowing dogs of chains and properly wet.
I have seen someone wearing gloves made of drysuit material which go under the drysuit wrist seal, you have flease gloves underneath and sailing ones on top.
I also think that wetsuits loose warmth as they get older, when I first got my steamer it was toasty, now it is definatly not as good.
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I am just cold reviewing this thread.
Notice the icicles on the boat are angled backwards: They formed while we were sailing!
W
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I hope everyone has warmed up from their weekend, my toes still hurt.
I also would like to thank Andy and stu, never have i been so please to be met by two smiling faces and then to be told to go get changed and pretty much having the boat packed up by time I came back out. Unfortunately a lack of hot water in the ladies by time i got there was not the result i was hoping for but at least I was out the cold.
It was rediculous conditions to sail in, having said that both Pete and I did initally enjoy it, we knew it was not windy enough to do well but the odd gust came in to get us past a few people and we were looking at around a 30th place finish till the wind completly died on the final leg which alone was frustrating but it was at that point that I got so cold I lost the will to live. Topped off by the classy move of capsizing 10 yards from the finish because on the final tack where I had been doing the most leathal job of standing on the ice sheet that was the fordeck thru the tacks and having to kick the jib across as it couldn't cope withthe ice build up on the track this time it just wouldn't budge and with me having nowhere to go we fell in.
With regard tothe Hoo freezer. I have done this event several times and it is fun. However as was stated it does clash with the Tiger Trophy. Given the choice unless you are looking to support Hoo Freezer as your local event there really is no comparison. The Tiger Trophy is now a much more high profile event and it will be there were the top competition will be.
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The most gnarly light wind race I've ever done.
No regrets, it did exactly what it said on the tin. 6 knots, sometimes a little more and often less and freezing temps. So no suprises.
Leaving the south coast at 8am the car's outside temp readout was -5'C. Luckily had some elec tape in my pocket. Picked up Roz. Halfway up the M3 she asked why there was some elec tap on the dashboard. By then it was too late for her to get out. It was still -5'C at QM at 9.30am. At 11am the wind inceased to about 6k and it suddenly felt A LOT colder with wind chill.
PY - We where given '+42 mins' which equated to the class recommended 930. That was fair, albeit a full 5 minutes harder than last year when we were given the dated 975 due to no consultation.
We started with the Halo - the new proto big rig rotating mast Blaze. That PY (926) is ground braking for a single sail (non foiling) hiker and whilst looking at the start times board with the Halo skipper & developer, Mike Lyons, I commented that he would struggle to keep with the Cherubs when we popped our big kites. I will be eating a lot of hats - he kept in touch with us until the end when we were becalmed and he cruised by as we approached the finsh, much respect to him & his new boat!
After much ummming and arrring on the shore we went for it with as +ve attitude as possible with a goal of top 30 (/175 )in the less than ideal Cherub conditions.
We quickly reaslised the challenge ahead as we sailed to the start and the pro griped racks had a film of ice on them. At the front Roz was fairly balanced, but at the back I tried to always get in a loop, otherwise I required a wide stance which wasn't cool for showing off the class! At one point trapezing off the rack downwind I needed to put one foot in and so I could stay in the foot loop I put the front foot in thereby angling diagonaly backwards - that didnt really work. After a while we got a little more used to it and we just stayed prepared for a slide, like snowbarding.
In anticaipation of light winds and ice I had put several thin strips of pro grip on the fordeck for Roz at 10.30pm the night before. Howver ice bridged over the top of them.
Kicker we found a good average setting coz the iced cleats couldnt be trusted when we moved it. We might have been faster in the light winds with no T dragging behind. When we did get to go fast enough the rope kept slipping thru the iced up cleat diminishing any advantage. Jib track was frozen EVERY tack. We had to manually push it accross. This led to a capsize 20m from the finish with Roz on the fordeck stuck the wrong side of it - sense of humour officially over then.
We had a fast downwind on the middle lap as the wind puffed up towards 10k and cruised up behind the lead Fireball, but then we failed to get any closer as the wind died off again.
On the last lap the kite haly cleat failed with ice and we had to hold the halyard whilst trying to balance the iced up boat.
We rounded the last windward mark in maybe 45 place ish. With a tight kite reach the length of the lake we were hopeful of getting into the top 30. However the wind switched off completely and became a beat and we ended up loosing places instead, finishing 51st. That gave us 6th trapeze boat.
Mucho thanks to top shore crew Stu Tinner & Andy Peters who saved our bacon with much Cherub love helping us retrieve and pack up - at that point it really felt like survival - ashore in 2 knots of wind!
JimC - where were you? I thought you were local and would come to watch. Your posting Fri pm tipped the balance on us coming and I had been promising Roz some bloke called JimC would buy her a Vodka and Orange afterwards.
Well done to Phil & Sarah getting 14th in their Enterbox. Snigglers.
Clothing - to follow.
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Thanks Pete,
That was my second best position at the BM but I was really impressed with how well we did in the conditions since I have'nt sailed the 'box' for a couple of months.
Sorry we didn't bring the Cherub.
Even before the start I had a problem with ice. the cunningham was encased in a block of ice in the bottom of the boat and was quite difficult to get through the pulley on the sail. The kicker froze before the start so to change it we had to pull the lines after uncleating them. our cleats were ok perhaps because they are a bit more sheltered. The jib sheets were solid by the end of the race and we nearly didn't need jib sticks for the reaches. We had the icicles on the gunnel thing too.
We started well in our fleet of 5 and had two other good boats to deal with. We exchanged our class lead with Russel Short on about 5 occasions so had to concentrate as we went round.
We had a good beat to the first mark and pulled in the first ent on the first reach and took the runmb line run down the run getting an inside overlap on Russel. He played the beat up the spit better and we initially got into dirty air behind the solos but later erred on banging right nearer the spitt where there was clearer air but less pressure. were a bit fatser.
We got back past Russel on the second lap only for him to sail below us on the reaches past the end of the spit where the wind dropped a bit. We got our own back on the reach to the bottom of the spit which had become a fetch and having rounded on the outside, went low and sailed through russ and some solos to leeward. Up the spitt he went left and we went right and we were a boat length ahead. We slowly extended this and gained more by going right on each beat which seamed to pay. I nearly lost my sense of humour when the wind died because sitting still meant getting very cold. Sarah was so cold that she wasn't thinking straight. (not a critasism). Rus had nearly caught us and was to leeward again. Fortunately a breeze did fill in and we started to move. With some concentration on sail trim we harnessed the zephyr and pulled away from the parked up larks, merlins and bosun near us. managed not to tack for the finish and stayed ahaead of the merlin who did tack.
Coming in was a problem because the rudder pin had frozen. Accidentially grounding the rudder knocked the ice off the pin and sorted us out.
A BIG THANKS TO STU FOR THE CUPS OF TEA. that was really apreciated and helped us to pack the boat up. We actually started to feel warm(er) after we got ashore.
it was great to meet up with Pete, Roz, Will, Lucy, Stu and meet Andy peters for the first time. the boat looked brilliant and has insprired us more to get on with ours.
We are sailing the box again at the boat show in the Sunday pursuit race. Hopefully it is not blowing dogs off chains because I'm not fit.
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I apologise if I was an undue influence on folk turning out for what must have been a truly horrible day. Apologies for not being present but I haven't got the bike on the road at the moment and couldn't raise enthusiasm for finding a parking spot for the van, especially as I spent the day (and since) attempting to cough up my bronchial tubes...
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I am just cold reviewing this thread.
Notice the icicles on the boat are angled backwards: They formed while we were sailing!
W
well done to all who competed. You nutters!
As for when it's cold, I wear multiple rash vests long sleeve, hot top, short sleeve under Neil pride wet suit and semi dry spray top. But to be honest I wouldn't go out in that anyway!
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i've a set of gill hi-fits which i wear with and spray top, shorty wetsuit and a scalf to keep the heat in and my neck warm. i've not been out in as cold weather but it was -2 2 weeks ago when i went out in the 400. found that with the hi-fits and spray top keeping the wind out (and some heat in) i was more than warm enough. the wind chill always seems the bad bit so i find stopping that solves lots of problems. big respect though on going out.
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i find t shirts and shorts are more than adequate
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CLOTHING – here is my take on it when very cold;
Drysuit vs Steamer
I have a 5mm winter steamer but over the past 2 winters have tended to use it in autumn & spring and go for the drysuit in the depths of winter. The change for me was when that about autumn '07 (?) Henri Lloyd brought out a light weight breathable drysuit. This has overcome the previous cumbersome feel of heavy drysuits that were previously more suited to hikers than trapezers who need speed & agility. My pretty 'peach' number is their prototype from 18 months ago, no longer available in that colour sorry.
The advantage with a drysuit is it keeps off the windchill better than a steamer. You can layer up under a drysuit. You can get toasty in a steamer if you are working hard (and sure there is less windage if you are going to be fussy) but you do suffer from windchill over time. I would not have wanted to be in my steamer at the Bloody Mary, the wind chill had gone beyond that for me. When we arrived at 0930 there was say 3kn of wind, at 11.00 it increased to 6kn and the wind chill plummeted. If it had got windier still we might have been more active but over a long race the chill would have got to us.
So in summary, whilst I like wearing a steamer I prefer it for short active sails (quick training or 1 short club race). For extreme cold conditions or a long race (BM was 108mins for Cherubs) or back to back races drysuit is my preference.
I was however a little disappointed when launching (we need to go balls deep as we have a ‘+’ rather than ‘T’ foil) to find it leaking around the crotch! Ouch!
Layering – Lots of thin layers rather than a few thick ones is key. Thereby trapping layers of air and different layers have different properties (moisture wicking, thermal, insulation…).
I have 3 top layers; tight long sleeve thermal, slack long sleeve thermal with neck, long sleeve fleece with neck. On hindsight I should have had another thin fleece.
One pair tracky bottoms, on hindsight I could have had thermal leggings underneath.
Hands – For about 5 months of the year I wear (need) wetsuit gloves. I have both Magic Marine and Crewsaver ones that I like. Roz’s Gill ones are thicker still, personally I would only use them doing something inactive (rib or big boat).
Feet – Thick socks, drysuit’s boots, neoprene boots/shoes. (If too tight ie too many socks can impede circulation and make matters worse, dry socks reduce heat exchange)
Head – Hat is vital
Buoyancy aid – a good tight fitting buoyancy aid provides great insulation. I recall Roz only put hers on when we went afloat but I had mine on ASAP whilst rigging. 18’ sailors suffer for not having these when it is cold.
A couple of years after being a student I realised that sailing in the winter can be a lot more fun – if you have the right kit. With the right kit you can extend your season safely without (as much) pain and focus more on the sailing and enjoy it rather than just trying to stay warm.
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Clothing: well I definitely wasn't wearing quite enough, but I wasn't as cold as Will!
Hot top 1mm neoprene
5mm steamer
buoyancy aid
Old thick padded harness
aquafleece
balaclava
hat
builders gloves without fingers
wet socks
boots
All assembled in the changing room to maximize warm air trapping!
1. I am slightly surprised that fingerless gloves didn't end in frostbite, but I wasn't taking the main up wind, so my hands weren't wet all the time. I was still getting bits of feeling back the following day.
2. I usually start cold races in balaclava & hat, and discard both after the first hoist. I kept both on all race, the only problem with this is I sound like Kenny from South Park, and as Will's core temp dropped he became unable to tell the 'Mmmmm wwww ww ww wwwwwwww MmMm' means 'Not the red flag, the blue one, where are you going?' and 'Wuuuff ffff mm mm mmm' means '18ft skiff on starboard heading our way'.
3. Once I'd adjusted to the sensation free feet I was surprisingly OK, but trapezing when it happened was more hazardous due to the ice & poor feedback.
4. I did suffer from increasing chill over the racec, usually cured by an energetic hoist and kite run which only happened once.
5. I think I was less cold than Will because I was crouched up in front of the mast (despite sitting on sheet ice) and I wasn't handling the sheets as much.
I will be looking into thicker, waterproof, windersurfing boots, and a neoprene balaclava.
And moving to Southern Spain.........
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My view is that dry suits are fine, but breathability is key. Getting soaking wet from sweat is not only unpleasant, it's also going to make you cold.
I use a Typhoon drysuit because they are the most breathable.
On my top I use a tight leaf layer designed to wick moisture away from the skin
A high-tech rugby shirt that's thick enough to be warm, but loose enough to allow mobility and highly breathable
A thin fleece
BA and Harness
On my botttom I simply wear a pair of tracky B's, or 2 if it's really cold
On my feet I wear relatively thick socks
And a fleece balaclava on my head
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I wear a winter steamer, Surfing one though so its got a batwing (stops water going down your neck!) also designed for a sport where you spend much more time in the water than cherubing!, its 6mm on legs and body and 4mm on the arms to allow good movement. Its almost waterproof and very warm. I tend to wear a thermal rash vest under it, and a rooster aqua fleece over the top if its really cold to keep out the wind chill, i almost always wear builders gloves, but on really cold days i have a neoprene pair. Wetsuit socks and a pair of aigle boots keep my feet warm. If its really cold i wear a hat in between races, but stuff it down my bouyancy aid whilst racing as i hate sailing in a hat, i find a bare head is much better for wind awareness. i've spent some very cold days in the water wind surfing/sailing and have still been really toasty.
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I'm finding that the bare head is good for wind awareness but I have to wear a hat in the BM conditions because the head is getting quite bare in places! It was so cold.
It was ok if you were moving around a bit but sitting still in the cold was no fun.