UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: phil_kirk on October 17, 2008, 12:42:56 PM
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Well, we've started.
Andy P. has started the hull and deck shell and we got sticky over last weekend.
I hope to make as many components as I can before we recieve the shells from Andy. this is principally to make best use of the space in the garage, make best use of Will's vaccum pump and speed up the total build time.
last weekend we made the flat panels for the bulkheads and spine.
While I'm working out the off sets for the foils in the later evenings I plan to make the mast stump, tiller and deck beams.
once the foils are made I can think about the case and rudder stock.
The pole is a precursor to the snout tube (i think it's easyier doing it that way).
The question is do I make the stump the same diameter and wall thickness as the standard mast section?
I'm asssuming 50mm ID and wall thickness of 2mm. Any theories dimensions welcome.
I'm going to make the tiller next because i can and because i want to experiment with vaccum bagging a carbon tube.
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Congratulations on starting your build,
for the diameter, I would say ideally the same as the mast or possibly slightly larger if it sticks up much. 50mm sounds a bit small I think 55mm is more standard.
Don't bother vaccuming a tube, you always get a pinch where the bag folds and that wil ruin the tube. Get the heat shrink tape, it will give you the best results on a tube. you could make do with parcel tape but if you are going to do a few tubes the proper stuff is well worth it.
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Thanks phil
I have tried shrink taping on our pole last year but it didn't go to well. The taper of the pole meant that the overlap of the tape reduced to nothing and to re-align the relatively stiff tape gave a crinkle which dug into the laminate. i also didn't get it tight enough which didn't help. The crinkles left nasty dents in the finished laminate.
My thinking was that any crease left by the thinner softer bag material will be less noticeable than the dents i got from the shrink tape. especially since the laminate is covered by several other layers of consumables too. these consumables don't appear to transfer creases in the bag to the laminate.
I'm still curious, so to satisfy my curiosity i'l try the tiller and put it down to experience if it goes wrong.
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Hi Phil, we got a good finish on the pole (before snapping it) using parcel tape we found we could alter the angle enough to ensure a 2/3 overlap all the way along. We had one person sat down and another turning the pole slowly took ages but the pressure still forced out excess resin.
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Why not 50mm peel ply wrap and then bag it. Peel ply has enough flex to be controllable when wrapping. And would stop most of the issues with the bag creasing the cloth.
Edit: also if you use a final layer of sock in a second stage it will look mint.
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Stump thickness.
There isn't much to an Elway so it's a safe bet that it's going to be under weight. Slightly overbuilding the mast stump is not going to do any harm (except maybe a few extra quid in materials) and you'll have no worries about wacking on loads of tention without breaking anything. If it goes on your first outing you'll be damn annoyed!
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Stump thickness.
There isn't much to an Elway so it's a safe bet that it's going to be under weight. Slightly overbuilding the mast stump is not going to do any harm
If you go into a build with that attitude it will end up over weight, everything you put onto the boat should be weighed, and worried about. There have been more heavy boats built in the last few years than light ones!
There is no harm in trying vac bag on the tube as an experiment, I think the key to avoiding creases in the tube is pullng the cloth tight as you lay it up. A paralel tube is much eisier than a tapered one to wrap and I think you can get a more even pressure on it than you would get with a vac bag.
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Thanks phil and Ross,
I am mindfull that every few gramms here and there will add up so I don't want to add unneccesarily over engineer each item. The short stump on the ELWAY is unlikely to fail from bending and is heavily supported so unlikely to buckle. Like any component of a boat it's the shock loads that cause the problems and are hard to predict. I am not aware of any stump that has gone but I share Ross's thoughts that it would be pretty annoying if it went on the first sail.
Thanks again for the advice and comments.
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Are you going Atum bom tube fest or Antidote style miny stump?
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Mini Stump solution,
I still want the ability to get two boats in the garage both during and after build.
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Halo's longish stump was/is part sleeved - from the top to part way down the bulkheads. I couldn't think of a reason why it needed to be the same layup right down to the floor - if it was going to break it would be at or near deck level... I guess a tapered stump would be the most elegant solution. The sleeving was more to do with what bits of tube I had available.
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Using heatshrink or parcel tape rather than bagging:
There seem sto be a lot of variation in the overlap between adjacent wraps of tape.
I definitely recommend overlapping the turns by loads - like only covering about 5mm or less of new cloth each wrap. It uses a lot of tape but seems to produce good results.
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Jim,
I was thinking exactly the same. If the load wasn't being shed into the adjacent bulkheads and spine the mast stump would punch through the bottom of the hull. The fact that the stump is connected menas that load can travel throughout the structure.
I chickened out of bagging the tiller and used shrink tape. This was partly due to time to lay up before a tired Sarah got back from Weston (at which I failed, oops!) and secondly because I wanted to bring the partly cured tiller inside overnight to keep warm.
Will,
The peal ply and shrink tape combination worked really well. and I have a 200gramm tiller with a biax, uni, weave layup.
The interesting bit was getting the tiller off the plastic tube used as a mandrel. I actually had to heat the thing up with a heat gun before the car could pull the tiller off the tube. I'm wondering If heating the heat shrink is also softening the tube and therfore not doing very much. DOH!
I'm now thinking of sleaveing the plastic tube for the mast stump with a metal pole to provide stiffness and hopefully if a tight fit resistance against compression. (I found a 53mm dia down pipe in B&Q to use as a mandrel). B&Q really do have all you need to make a boat if you look hard enough.
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Phil and Sarah in an Ellway 5 ! Bugger I really am jealous.
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I am happy to report that lessons learned from the november 2007 pole building experience have been learnt and we are very pleased with the tiller and mast stump for the E 5 built this week. The over length and untrimmed mast stump weighed in at 400 grams. We did taper the layers a bit.
We got very good consolidation which we think will make a big difference to weight and strength.
This was attributed to:
wetting out each cloth evenly but with less resin allowing each layer to be layed more compactly on to the mandrel.
after laying each cloth on the mandrel consolidating with hands (or roller)
spiral winding peal ply pulling it very tight after each turn
tightly winding heat shrink over the peal ply taping it in place and heating.
The heat shrink still squeezed out some resin so we new the layup was fully wetted out.
The finnished piece has an even surface and has a nice ring to it when tapped.
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I collected the shells gantry and rack tubes from Andy Patterson on Turesday. Whilst on the top of my car they have been on the ferry 2 defence establishments and Frampton sailing club before getting home.
The road trip also caused extra excitment when the exhaust fell off the car and I had to lash it in place before visiting the local 'quick fit'.
The bits fit in the garage above the ent. Just!
i'm glad we've made some of the bits ahead of getting the shells because space has become more of a premium now.
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All those bits of carbon tube and you had trouble with the exhaust!
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Latest spy photos
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Hey stop cheating with that wide angle lens.... it's never that thin!!! :o
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thanks to tim we got the transom trimmed to length and the bulkheads and spine in the correct location on Saturday. i spent sunday afternoon trimming the bulkheads to fit the hull and gluing the two parts of the spine together. More fetteling required to get the main bulkheads to fit the hull and the top of all bulkheads the right shape to take the deck.
Over christmass we have made both the fore and aft deck beams (that fit between the hull and the racks), the stays below the forward deck beams that oppose the rig loads, and a t-foil blade.
Things are going well and it's starting to come together.
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Good work Phil, glad to see shes coming together. If you need a hand with anything give me a call although things are a bit awkward at the moment what with the little one being in hospital. Hope that my dad didnt put you off on Sunday !
Any ideas about a colour scheme yet or is Sarah keeping it hush hush ?
Also what rig choice have you made, and will it be ready by the Regatta at the end of May ?
Paul
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Thanks Paul,
It was quite relaxed sailing with your dad and his chums. We had a bit of competition on the foredeck what with me used to doing the lot and not too much to do in the lighter conditions.
It looks like things will be warming up a bit soon so we will be able to do some bonding in the garage and get those bulkheads in. I'm determined to get a close fit and avoid using lots of bog and addding weight.
I hope Izzy is a bit better now.
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OK guys
I need to make the centreboard case. I'm currently thinking of HD foam pad on the inside bottom of the hull and a carbon sleave going through the pad between the hull and deck. After our experience of grounding at Chew last year I think it is worth making the front and back of the case a few layers thicker. It's easier to repair a board than the case so the board becomes the weaker link. I intend to make the sleave with some play to allow for some repairs and pack it top and bottom to reduce play.
Your experience and views are welcome.
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Will and I cut the DB case in Antidote. By the looks of it, Andy.P built a box inside the boat with a wedge of high density foam (pretty heavy stuff!) stuck on to the deck. The bottom wasn't reinforced IIRC.
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The method used by Andy P is fairly standard, with the foam wedge being the sacrificial part, although the board usually ends up with some damage too but doesnt normally snap off and nor do you cut a slot in the bottom of the boat.
If you make the case to heavy you run the risk of snapping the board if you ground at speed so best to have a bit of give if you can.
I think I'd tend towards the Andy P method, and if you have any wear shove the board in with a bit of parcel tape (a couple of layers) around the Trailing edge and fill with Sikaflex.
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There is a bit of HD foam set in flush to the hull too, so the bottom is reinforced.
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Ok so pad top and bottom box and sleave made over the foil with foam wedges around the trailing edge to absorb grounding loads and save the hull.
A bit more complex than I imagined but that's why I asked the question.
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Phil, is the plan to make the sides of the case foam sandwhich or just one layer of weave?
I think when I replace mine I'm going to use foam sandwhich.
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I think it is quite difficult to get a good fit around the leading edge with foam, it potentially adds quite a bit of extra weight.
Foam sections is a good idea, and making sure that everything is bonded neatly so there is not sly path for water.
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The first case on mango was a tight fit around the board and made from 3mm 75kg-ish Herex with 1 layerof 200g carbon inside and out and a layer of 180g glass on the inside also. There was no reinforcement (core or skin)of the hull. From previous experience the joint between the case and the outside skin was prone to failure so I managed to laminate several layers of light glass from the bottom skin into the case.
I replaced the case after 3 seasons for several reasons
The second case was oversize and made of 5 layers of 200 carbon with flanges to the hull and deck inside. 1" deep spacers top and bottom were top and glued in place to keep the board in position. These were from 100kgfoam with some light glass around them. This setup allowed me to move the board for/aft ( a small amount) or adjust the rake of the board by simply replacing the foam spacers. I could've also use a different shaped board by just replacing the spacers.
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I'm seeing the benifit of an oversized case/sleave. If i follow Andy P's method the case has to be integrated into the lower pad. I'm considering letting the oversized sleave into the pad and hull core but not through the outer skin. I will then use foam spacers at the bottom of the case to pack the foil and allow for mods/repairs.
I can also see that an over sized sleave allows the fine tuning of blade alignment to made after the case has been fitted.
The spine and main bulkheads are ready for bonding to the hull. The deck fits the hull and spine well nearly fits the main bulkheads. I only have a little fine tuning to do to the other bulkheads. Unless I stiffen the whole thing up I will keep sanding everything until the garage is full of carbon and foam dust.
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latest update.
Saturday- With a bit more help from Tim we shaped the top of all the bulkheads so that the deck would sit snuggly on top. This is a step by step process working from the front and putting torches in front of the bulhead you are working on stick the deck on and look in to the hull from the back. The light shows where the deck isn't touching the bulkheads and also where it isn't touching the gunnels. removing the high spots on the bulkhead allows the deck to sit on the gunnel and closes the gap between the deck and the bulkhead. On to next bulkhead and then the transom.
We got the mid bulkhead and transom bonded in (Having done the main bulkhead and spine previously).
Sunday morning came and went.
Sunday afternoon made a mould for the centreboard case sleave and most of a mould for the main trolley cradle.
The main cradle is going to be over width with rounded ends and sides to avoid crunching the hull on a sharp point each time we launch or recover it. It is really easy for the boat to sit aukwardly on a cradle made for the boat when recovering and this risks the hull sitting on a sharp end of the cradle.
I hope to mould the case this evening and finish the mould for the trolley cradle.
My thoughts for the front cradle revolve around moulding on to the hull but then adding foam to the ends and sides of the cradle to avoid sharp points. i hope we will be more able to control the bow when recovering.
I am also 35 today.
Mast is also on order.
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Happy Birthday young man.
Glad to hear things are going well.
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and putting torches in front of the bulhead you are working
A laser is pretty good for this, I used a laser level when I did the Canoe.
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Phil,
Consider using astro turf to pad the cradle. Doesnt hold water next to the hull and avoids the danger of grit & sand getting in there and scratching.
For the trolley design also consider if you want to lash the boat to the trolley (amidships and bow) and tip the whole lot over together when rigging. That is our preference, like I14s do I think. If you do, try not to make the craddles any higher or the trolley any heavier than necessary. We tie a bag/tool box to the mast tip when we tip over to weigh it down prior to the sails going on.
35? Bloody hell! I thought you were much older than me.
P
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35! What is the retirement age for cherubists? ha ha
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Well I'm 42. So I hope it's older than that! :o
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Pete,
Well done at the weekend.
trolleys: I have been thinking about the astroturf on top of some foam rubber. The base will be made to fit our road base and i was planning to keep it simple and go for steel box tubing which I can weld together.
I thought you were older than me (cheeky). Daryl has kindly made me feel a lot better. know that I know he's older still.
We made the sleave for the case last night and the aft cradle mould is nearly ready.
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Don't worry I'll be 38 in march ???
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Don't worry, I'll be 19 in march!
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Have you started potty training yet? ;D
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That also means I got my first boat (a fireball 10772) in the same month you were born Ross. CRAP now I feel really old!
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latest update.
We have made the trolley cradles. I made a mould for the aft one going for an over-width shallow curve to match the hull. the cradle is wider by about 100mm either side to allow for inaccurate recovery.
the fornt cradle which was moulded over the hull was completed over the weekend to give it some rigidity.
I was going to fit the centreboard case and start looking at fitting rack beams etc but that all got put on hold when a bit of light decorating turned into something a bit bigger.
I ended up re plastering the dining room fire place, taking several trips to the tip and B&Q and we are now re-painting the room before new carpets get fitted next Monday.
Hopefully back to boat building by the weekend.
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What! Re-decorating the dining room? Surely you aren't going to be stopping to eat before your boat is ready to hit the water?
You should have built it in there rather than that cold garage and then re-decorated it afterwards!
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35! What is the retirement age for cherubists? ha ha
I lasted till 55, but still sailing silly boats ( not cherubs tho').
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You are never older than 55? Must have been a very easy paperround 8)
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House complete for the moment despite us also dog sitting Sarah's parents red setter puppy. It wanted to help with the painting which could have been very amusing. We decided not to let it help with the boat building.
fortunately the temperatures have increased recently and we have made progress alongside the painting indoors.
Over the weekend We fitted the mast stump, filleted all the bulkhead hull connections and covered the fillet joints with a layer of weave. We also fitted the pad at the base of the centreboard case and covered this with a layer of weave too. I plan on starting to fit racks etc when I get back from the South Atlantic. :) I May miss the dinghy show though :(.
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You should only let old english sheepdogs help with the painting ;)
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progres to date.
Since returning from the Falklands we have bonded the centreboard case in, made the supports for the fwd racks and shaped the inboard end of the fwd rack beams to fit round the mast stump. Pole has been coated to fill any voids dry bits and sanded so we can make the snout tube over it.
the deck has been trimmed at the transom and for the mast stump, C/B case and fwd rack supports.
Aft rack supports to go next and then a lot of fiddling around to get everything level.
Also need to make the gantry pivot points on the transom.
After that it is deck on.
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Phil - would you mind writing up your Falklands trip? I heard you saying thta you're just back from there at the dinghy show but stupidly did not ask you about it!
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I would rather not publish too much info. on the website.
I can summarise that it was succesfull, we did get Endurance on to MV Target after a small delay waiting for better weather. The ship is now on her way back to the UK.
We did get an afternoon out to visit Stanley and see the penguins and Gypsy Cove.
Stanley is like a medium sized British village, with well kept gardens and a nice waterfront onto port William Sound (similar to Helensburgh).
The roads are mostly gravel tracks but some bits of tarmac appeared everynow and then. Everyone drives land rovers and most stick to the 40 mph speed limits. (Accidents are quite regular).
The landscape is similar to Dartmoor and the weather changes by the hour. Since we were there in the summer we occasionally got down to shirt sleaves (15 degrees C is a good summer's day). The wind generally picks up to 25 knots or more in the afternoon . In the winter you can have Sun, snow and rain all in one morning and roads will be closed in poor weather.
it's good to be back even if it is a bit cooler here.
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progres to date.
After that it is deck on.
Are there any progress pictures. For some reason I'm really keen to see how those bits go together ::)
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Back on topic
On Saturday we glued in the aft rack supports but not the beams. We also completed most of the filleting and carboning having done the Spoffel the centreboard case and a bit more around the mast stump bulkhead/spine intersection.
Sunday evening i offered the 4 deck beams to the supports and started the fiddling around to allow the racks to sit at the right level. I did a bit more fiddleing last night. With a bit more tweaking I think we are nearly there with the position of the deck beams.
The next job is to bond in the aft beams and cut the deck to fit round them.
I haven't got round to the gantry mounts but have the small diameter tube which will form the bearings for the gantry pivots and rudder pin gudgeons.
Yippee!
Holiday next week so Sarah and I will be cannal boating.
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there are some photos on sarah's camera. We are following Andy P's photos of the previous build.
I will try and load some up tonight.
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We did get an afternoon out to visit Stanley and see the penguins and Gypsy Cove.
Stanley is like a medium sized British village, with well kept gardens and a nice waterfront onto port William Sound (similar to Helensburgh).
The landscape is similar to Dartmoor and the weather changes by the hour. Since we were there in the summer we occasionally got down to shirt sleaves (15 degrees C is a good summer's day). The wind generally picks up to 25 knots or more in the afternoon .
A good venue for a UK Cherub Winter Champs? Maybe British Government / Services might sponsor transport?! Would be a more interesting alternative to the Bloody Mary!
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I assume building will come to a halt very soon for at least one weekend.
Hope you both have a very nice weekend.
Best wishes and stuff from Lara and I.
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Thanks for the accommodation over the weekend Dave and Lara.
great progress over the last two days.
Snout tube made
1 tiller extension made
Gantry fittings made and bonded/carboned into transom.
Uni hoops lamminated over fwd rack beams.
Aft beams to go on next followed by the ends of the ears and the tie beams under the forward racks
Then (and I can't believe it) we will be at deck on time.
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Another productive weekend!
Won 1 Enterprise open on Saturday.
Made second Cherub tiller extension (160 grams and a bit heavy I know)
Bonded aft rack beams on
made and bonded end stops for jib track on.
fwd beam tie bars and ears to go.
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Aim this weekend is to put the deck on.
I am considering building a foam carbon Shute with quite fat radius. The opening would angle about 45 degrees back from the horizontal and the start of the opening would be about 45cm back from the forestay.
The aim is to taper the lines of the shute into the deck edge and remove any snags. When we changed Slippery's shute the absense of sharp corners and tight radiuses improved drops enormously.
I notice the RS's all have the shute in front of the forestay but i think the 9ers don't.
Thoughts Please?
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The pictures show the Mark 1 and Mark 2 versions of the chute on Primal, Mark 1 was rubish, unless you had a perfect drop the patch would jamb in the corner and if you went shrimping it was pretty much game over. The mark 2 was a big improvement with large radius's everywhere a good drop was eisier and the kite would pull up over the side full of shrimp.
at one point I came very close to getting a 49er chute molding to put on the boat but at £120 for a bit of fiberglass I decided to use a bike inner tube
Mark 1
(http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/lib/exe/fetch.php/boats/2686-20060403a.jpg?cache=)
Mark 2
(http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/lib/exe/fetch.php/boats/2686-20060403e.jpg?cache=)
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Phil,
Did the Halyard ever thry to burn into that one? We have had several scar lines from ugly drops. In the trifle we had to cover our hoop with a bit of metal.
R
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Phil,
Did the Halyard ever thry to burn into that one? We have had several scar lines from ugly drops. In the trifle we had to cover our hoop with a bit of metal.
R
There were some scars but none too deep, I had quite a few layers of glass on the bottom for protection
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We had a few shallow scars on our shute too but had about 4 layers of glass (more abraision resistant than carbon) in the areas which were going to see the greatest wear.
In line with this week's plan we got the deck glued on this morning.
Finished all the internal fettling Staurday evening.
The picture shows our progress
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Now that I have worked out how to attach photos here are a couple from a few days ago.
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I am considering building a foam carbon Shute with quite fat radius.
*real* chutes, with reverse curve running into a tube are real [several expletives deleted] [more expletives deleted] to make. I did one for Halo when new and vowed never again... Subsequent iterations were all carved and sanded foam blocks running under the foredeck. Much easier. Kevlar in the layup helps enormously with the cut through problem: suitable offcuts available for collection at Epsom if you arrive with your own new scissors if you have no easier source.
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In line with this week's plan we got the deck glued on this morning.
Congratulations! That looks very very like a boat!
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Another good weekend's work.
We covered the faired hull deck join with 2 layers of weave which takes longer in preperation time and application than you think.
I also made the sleave for the rudder stock (1 layer of weave, one layer of biax) over the rudder blade which we have faired. In the process of clamping some peices of thin plywood around the layed up sleave, to consolidate it, the whole contraption fell from the work mate. I tried to catch it but the trailing edge gave me a deep cut in a finger. It's quite sharp!
The sleave came off the rudder blade quite easily.
This is going to be a light rudder stock!
It looks like we can get the next bits on quite quickly.
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Carbon curts always take longer to heal than you might expect. Take care with them.
Congratulations on the build progress - we dream of getting to the point where 6 becomes 1.
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Thanks Roland,
It seams to be heeling and looks quite clean. Haven't died yet. Anyway there are much worse ailments to worry about at present so I'm not too bothered.
We are hoping to get the snout tube on and the fwd beams on tonight.
I cut the hole in the bottom of the hull last night for the C/board. The HD foam pad has bonded well to the outer hull skin and the area looks solid. I'm going to put a couple of layers of weave around the inside of the HD foam pad with uni reinforcement at front and back. I'm going to do the same for the top pad as well.
I will be running out of bits to make soon and have to do the fairing.
How is your build going?
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Slow. Cut the mast step in last night. Have developed an irrational fear of cutting the transom to length. Have decided to leave this till the Weston open and borrow the class measuring sticks and ensure I get this right. Am verging on not fitting a case until the deck is bonderd together (and I have a CB to make it to).
The list for the next 2 weeks therefore is reduced to - Fit stump, fillet BH's , Carbon stump in, Fit wing tenstion struts, shape front wing bars, make a mast, make a prod , make a CB, Rudder, foil and stock.
Basically we are having an easy week or two ::)
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That sounds like a good deal of work to me.
Having made a lot of components in the autumn we are quickly bonding things together. Last night we bonded in the fwd beams, the snout tube and the pad for the top of the C/B case.
We made good use of rachet straps to ensure that everything is fitted tightly.
I didn't fit the struts for the fwd beams until I was happy with the angle of the fwd beams and was able to use them to line the struts up.
I need to:Trim beams to length and shape ends to take the rack tubes, fit fairings for the beams and then cover with final layer of carbon.
make Shute!
I want to get the rudder stock bogged to gether and set up the gantry. That puts me in a position to get all the stainless bits made accurately at the same time.
Lots of fairing to do if we get bored.
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Ok so after sailing at Penarth today in the ent. (We got one race in good waves and just in control which gave us a 3rd) we did a bit more on the boat.
We carefully measured the beams and cut where the racks needed to fit. We then sanded the curved shape of the rack tube into the end of the beam ( by holding sand paper around the tube and sanding a lot). It gives a good tight fit.
We then taped the rack tubes onto the beams for another measure.
The second photo shows the finished result.
The first photo was showing a good use of rachet straps to make sure that the fwd beams were bonded in nice and tight and the pad for the top of the C/B case was on well.
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First photo reffered to above
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That is excellent progress, what were the square beams made on?
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Good work! I really like those beams - you'll be able to get the jib track lower than us which is neater all round.
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The beams have a core of High density foam.
The front beams have a masive 4 layers of uni all round, 1 layer top and bottom and a layer of weave all round on them. The aft beams have 2 less layers of uni all round than the front. They are quite solid.
Low density foam fairings to be added. I preffer these to hollow carbon fairings. I didn't want water to get trapped in parts of the structure. That would add more weight when sailing than the extra foam.
I don't quite get the significance of your comment on the track Will. Could you explain.
I Have not decided weather to go for the track horizontally or angled up at 30, 45 or 60 degrees. All will work however some will push the car a few centimeters forward and others will push it up.
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Our wing supports stuck a little forward of the mast stump, so the obvious place to put the track was above that. You don't have that barrier, so the track can go lower, which means an easier time attaching the ends of the track. The Atum method was a 30mm length of carbon tube on each gunwhale, carboned down. The track was threaded through the little tubes, attached in the middle, the tubes were bogged down and later carboned.
On Antidote, because the gunwales are lower and the centre of the track is higher, there are prominent ears to support the end of the track. This was tricky to get right.
If you try the Atum method, the good bits are no ears, and an easier time fitting the track because it can be fitted without cutting it. The risks are a lower jib may have trouble getting over the kite hoop if yours is prominent (though a lower jib is good for other reasons), and a lower jib track may obstruct the spinnaker a bit in the sock as it dropped.
As far as angle goes, ours is probably about 60 degs to horizontal, and I am reasonably sure that a straight up one would work.
Theory is as follows:
1) A jib clew has two edges coming into it: Leech and Foot. Topologically these are the same (that is you could have a jib where the foot and the leech are the same length)
2) This means that the fundamental angle of a track is 'relative to the bisection of the angle of the foot and leech' rather than up or down.
3) The major issue with jib tracks is whether the car goes right to the end or not. If not, then you have a problem like rope self tackers.
4) If jib tracks flat on the deck work, it follows vertical ones will work too, especially as leech tension is at least as much as foot tension in a jib.
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Doing fiddly bits now.
Finished the rudder stock last week. 447grams without final clear coat layer. Now reckon I could make one lighter.
Yesterday i was sorting out the pivots for the gantry and carbonning the snout tube to the hull.
I had a thought that I could save some weight by making the horizontal gantry pivots from thin carbon tube instead of stainless steel. the tube would be in sheer only due to my attention to getting a good fit. I may fit a smaller bolt through the tube initially but there would still be a net weight saving.
Thinking laterally I wondered if I could substitute the rudder pin for a carbon tube with perhaps a bolt bonded in top and bottom. It would save a lot of weight but I suspect the thoughts on this would be 'no way it's going to break!
These ideas would save me from getting pins made specifically. because I can buy carbon tube from a kite shop and bolts from a chandlery.
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carbon kite spars are extruded normally? And tend to split very easily in my experience. Don't think I be going that way myself.
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I'd like to see this, because it may work but everyone else has been too chicken to try it!
You don't need to get stainless rudder pins made - you can buy a length or blag some off someone (we have some) and dome, split, notch or drill the end.
On Atums one we notched the end of the rod about 5mm in from the end with an angle grinder and hammered a thick washer on from the end with a hole that is a bit too small. Currently we have a hole drilled across the end into which a bolt goes. Other approached include splitting the end with an angel grinder and then bending out the remainder with a cold chisel, to make something that looks a little like a palm tree. If you like it ugly then a blob of polymorph blobbed round the notched end also works.
If you want to buy your own you can get it from (non-sailing) RS. I think the last lot cost £60 quid and was 5 lengths of 1.5m each. That makes a lot of rudder pins! YOu may be able to get smaler quantities. Ebay may provide.
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I got 50cm of 10mm diameter stainless rod from Ebay recently, for about a fiver. Its come in right handy !
Try this link http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/paulv1255_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/paulv1255_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ)
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If you like it ugly then a blob of polymorph blobbed round the notched end also works.
Careful I might take a fence at that ::)
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If the stock or back of boat is thick enough to take the twisting of the pin then you could just use two bolts with nothing in the middle.
I just rounded off the end of the rod and drilled a 3mm hole in each end for a split ring
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you can always use a thread tap on the end of the rod and put a nylock on it for a pimp finish. Tap & Die sets are cheap from ScrewFix:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/12080/Hand-Tools/Tap-Die-Sets/Carbon-Steel-Tap-Die-Set-16Pc
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i was aiming at the pimp finish so will investigate the tap and dye set. Thanks Daryl.
For the gantry pins I will try the kite tube with bolts inside. both the connections from the gantry to the transom has 3cm of bearing on the transom 2cm bearing on the gantry and another 3cm bearing on the transom. it's going to be a tight finish so all the force will be in shear.
I realise that the extruded carbon kite tubing may not be quite so strong. I suppose the optimum is winding lots of fibres in a + - 45 direction around a thinner rod or tube. One way to pass a quiet evening!
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For the dye set you will also need to find the strongest vice/clampset you can imagine. You may remember the vice at Milford Haven - that was about the right size with a scaffold bar to aid tightening.
If the thread goes on suspiciously easily then it is probably the wrong grade - for the gantry this is probably OK, but fatal fort he rudder pin :-)
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i was aiming at the pimp finish so will investigate the tap and dye set. Thanks Daryl.
For the gantry pins I will try the kite tube with bolts inside. both the connections from the gantry to the transom has 3cm of bearing on the transom 2cm bearing on the gantry and another 3cm bearing on the transom. it's going to be a tight finish so all the force will be in shear.
I realise that the extruded carbon kite tubing may not be quite so strong. I suppose the optimum is winding lots of fibres in a + - 45 direction around a thinner rod or tube. One way to pass a quiet evening!
Back in the old days I / we used to use carbon arrow shafts made by Easton, Beman. There are a load of different spec tubes from composite carbon ally to spiral wound. But they get quite expensive quite quickly. Eventually we / I moved on to purchasing tubing especially made for kite shafts from companies like Pultrex http://www.pultrex.com and RBJ http://www.rbjplastics.com ( I always found RBJ to be quite brittle ) and liked Pultrex better, they may be worth a try. But I used to buy 100 meters at a time so it is unlikely. But it will give you some names and tech specs to look at before popping down to the local kite store.
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I used to work at an Archery shop where we used to sell arrows made by Easton and Beman ;-) The majority of the expensive arrows were Aluminium and Carbon Composite, this was because they could use a thinner section but still have enough stiffness and weight for them to perform. Some of the more expensive ones were tapered so they were fatter in the middle too. Arrows come in a ridiculous variety of shaft size and weight. Not sure if they are really the answer though as they aren't really designed to take significant load. There only real requirement is to be long, light and very straight!
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significant load yes... but in column ;D
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For the dye set you will also need to find the strongest vice/clampset you can imagine. You may remember the vice at Milford Haven - that was about the right size with a scaffold bar to aid tightening.
If the thread goes on suspiciously easily then it is probably the wrong grade - for the gantry this is probably OK, but fatal fort he rudder pin :-)
If it is a struggle to cut the thread you are cutting too much in one go, you use the set screw to control the cut depth and do it in several passes, 1/3 of a turn then back off, and cut again. You then use the finishing nut for the last cut keeping it all lubricated.
Not sure exactly what you are planning with your gantry hinge but carbon against carbon makes for rubbish bearings.
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Progress is being made on E-numbers although there appears to be so much to do still.
The big steps forward in the last few weeks were fittings arrived thanks to Allen Bros and Roland's asistance.
A local club friend made the rudder and gantry pins and the shroud plates.
The shute is ready for it's final layer and fitting to the hull. trying to get a curved tube fair it not easy! it's very strong now and still only weighs 230 grams. favoured technique for laminating is to wind stips of cloth mixture of carbon and glass round it. (hence why it isn't very fair).
We fitted the spreaders to the mast. Thanks for the tips Will!
We spent ages trying to work out how to align the spreaders with the mast and each other.
Knowing that the loads through the shroud points and forestay attachment will dictate the fore and aft alignment of the mast we put a bar through the shroud holes and supported it on a level board. We then used a spirit level across the tips of the spreaders to get them aligned. To ensure a tight bond of the spreader band around the mast we rigged a purchase between the end of the spreaders.
Looking very pimp now.
We also made and fited the supports for the forward cleats. Very simple bits of foam carbon plate bogged on behind the fwd beam supports and beams. This should also provide easy access to cleat bolts. Need to put a layer of carbon over these to knit the structure together.
Lots of fairing to be done but hoping to have a mast up shortly.
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Any chance of some piccies of your cleat holder?
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Ok
I must put a few photo's up.
The cleat supports are formed from a vertical plate up from the gunnel running about 18cm back from the fwd beam supports. On this is a flat plate of 5cm width transversly that buts upto the back of the fwd beam. I have carboned it together now but thinking that I should add another plate at the aft end to stiffen it up further. It is forward of the shrouds but could be used accidentially as a kick bar.
The top plate is about 2cm lower than the top of the fwd beam which allows the control line blocks near the mast stump to be quite high.
the cleat supports make a great place to stow a water bottle.
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Here you go R. I've also added one of the centre support for the self tacker track.
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Many thanks. S will find that an ideal place to launch from - I agree about thinking of adding an end-plate at the rear.
(PS BGM are still unsure where the control lines on Little less conversation will go!)
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We are pretty sure that we are going to have the kicker, cunningham and the jib controls in that location. i haven't thought about the T foil too much but feel I need a coarse control somewhere near the back. The supports are very strong but I think a plate at the back will avoid accidents from dislodging it.
The T foil coarse control, could be:
2 cleats 1 either side on a continuous system.
1 single cleat with the line split after a block with a seperate line to trip it off. This trip line could be foot operated.
A swivel cleat on the centreline
I know I'm not good with the last one.
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After the second visit to the local chandlery ( and some hook terminals from C-Tech ) we now have shrouds on E-Number's mast.
Over the weekend we glued the tfoil onto the rudder and covered the joints between the racks and the beams with carbon. We are now well into the fairing stage. We are still playing around with the conection between the end of the jib track and the ears on the gunnels.
Next weekend we will be focusing on trolley building so we can then transport the boat around.
phil
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Good weekend spent building trolley.
day one made the A frame from aluminium box sections bolted together with stainless threaded rod. Axles also bolted on in same manner and wheels fitted.
day 2 was spent mostly trimming the previously built Fibre glass cradle and making the supports for it. Supports were bogged to gether and bolted to trolley. Went to barbe que in evening so couldn't bog the cradle on.
Day three We bogged the cradle on and made front cradle from Ply and bogged it together. This needs a layer of glass to seal it and add strength before padding can be added.
The front of the trolley is based on shiny's trolley while the aft cradle is mounted aft of the wheels. This means that when you lift the front of the boat the trolley lifts with it. The boat is nicely ballanced and the trolley is much lighter than Slippery's adjustable steel one. The whole thing was made to fit my current road base so traveling should be a little easier.
I had a little bog left so used this to bog a tube into the boom for the gooseneck.
realy
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any news?
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OK
last weekend saw some momentus steps forward.
We had the rig up on friday evening got the rake right and put as much rig tension on as I could with an 8:1 purchase. Decided that wire D2's are the way ahead.
Sataurday did some sanding and put first coat of high build primer on the hull and centreboard.
In the afternoon while it was still warm we positioned a few key fittings made some carbon fronting plates and eventually bonded them in place.
Sunday went sailing
Monday and Tuesday evenings when I've had time have been spent sanding the primer back. Need to do some more filling.
Have also bought materials for top cover and have cut out spinny sock. lots more sanding and painting to be done but the end is getting near.
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Great news - the last bit feels like an enternity, but believe me it is worth it :o
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Good effort!
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another 3 hours of filling and sanding this morning before we committed to a second coat of high build primer on the bottom and a first on the top. Looking good now!
With the rig back up and the wire D2's we have a very straight section up to the the upper spreaders.
A slight scare when the stainless hook we had been using on the boat breaker sheared and the mast went back on to the garage. No damage and so far not a sound from the hull.
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Boats looking very nice 8)
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E-Numbers went on her first road trip yesterday to get measured for her first suit of sails.
on the road she behaved impecably and fortunately so did our home made trolley.
rigged up in the sunshine up north ( It could have been summer it was so warm) she graciously accepted compliments from several on lookers.
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Phill does E numbers have a stump? as from the picture your uppers start at the goose neck.
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Didn't realise Globus Packaging were making sails now. I've been to the place next door to them a few times but didn't really rate their work ;)
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E numbers does not have a long stump. The stump stops just above the connection with the fwd beams
The photos show the boat without lowers rigged. currently we have caps, main shrouds and D2's rigged.
Here are two more from other aspects. network was so slow earlier I gave up trying to attach more than one.
E-Numbers should be similar to Antidote except where she isn't.
Differences that I am aware of:
Our mast stump is a bit longer below the deck but was made with a tapered laminate so it's thinner as you go down.
The fairings on our fwd and aft beams are not hollow. Instead there are shaped from 80kg foam and covered with 1 layer of weave.
the aft beams are a touch higher. Making it look pretty from front and back has been tricky.
The beam to rack connections have been done after the racks were bonded on.
The shute is a glass carbon moulding.
There is a bit more reinforcement around the centreboard case.
Most of these differences are due to personnal prefferences and experiences or lack of feel to how strong the boat needs to be.
We will see.
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Looks amazing
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More pics, in the spray booth. Phil and Sarah have done an excellent job and the effort and attention to detail has really paid off!
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If you think its excellent it is even better than I thought.
How much more to do before the big day?
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She looks great.
Doug
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Mnay thanks to paul for spraying E-numbers on Friday night. he's done an excellent job and raced round the boat with his spray gun like an oylimpic athlete to avoid dry lines in the paint. Some elements of the top including beams, shute and cleat supports etc were sprayed at the same time so we had to practice the point when we turned the boat over to avoid an embarasing delay.
The finish makes all the time spent fairing and filling wrth while. the lesson we learnt from the exercise was that it is best to apply a bit more filler than you think initially to avoid our several later aplications. It would have saved a bit of time.
We picked her up yesterday afternoon giving the paint three days to dry properly.
I want to weigh her tonight to find out where we are. I haven't done a weigh since we put the deck on.
The remaining jobs include
fairing and painting foils
applying progrip
making the sock
fitting fittings and lines.
i also thick that I will add kickbars. Partly to avoid flailing about on the ocasional tack or gybe and partly to cover some control lines
Dan,
I think we have a boat for the stand if you will have her.
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Phil,
Are you progripping the deck? When Stu and I took the progrip of Strawberry there was water underneeth. The boat had been inside for a good few months.
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Phil,
If I were you I'd only apply pro-grip on the racks. Use the sugared epoxy trick for adding non-slip on the deck.
Pro-grip can hold water underneath it as Ross mentioned if you dont get a complete adhesive bond. Also it tends to shrink over time leaving you with horrible adhesive witness marks all around it.
I guess we can have a chat about it on Friday night, although Sarah and Alex might get a bit fed up of Cherub and 700 talk by the end of the night !!!!!!
Paul
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We have bought the progrip.
We have not had a problem with water trapped under the progrip on Slippery.
Sarah insisted on progrip for the extra cushioning it gives when kneeling which does cause her pain at present.
We weighed the boat last night in her painted condition as you saw in the photos. She weighs (the boat that is) 34.6kg. Sarah weighs a little more. ;)
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Impresively light. Paul should be sent on a road tour to pass on his magic touch with the spray gun to non-weight obsessed types who find themselves faced with a Cherub - it is very easy to add several kg's in paint ::).
Am looking forward to seeing a used (but obviously new) boat at Ali Pali.
To aid the Pro-Grip debate.
-Any water quasi permanantly trapped under the pro-grip will be included in your all up weight as it is there when the boat is effectively "dry". It leaves the shore with you, stays with you round the course and is still there with you when you return to the shore - see the very boring debate about Saftey Kit. As it looks like your Ellway has room for a few kg's of grip/water trapped under it there is not much to worry about.
-If it helps we had significant joy with Plexus for the pro-grip. It look a serious effort to remove some when looking for the bung holes we had accidentally covered over and sets in minutes.
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We have bought the progrip.
We have not had a problem with water trapped under the progrip on Slippery.
Sarah insisted on progrip for the extra cushioning it gives when kneeling which does cause her pain at present.
We weighed the boat last night in her painted condition as you saw in the photos. She weighs (the boat that is) 34.6kg. Sarah weighs a little more. ;)
shall we open up the weight reduction argument again? ;)
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Impresively light. Paul should be sent on a road tour to pass on his magic touch with the spray gun to non-weight obsessed types who find themselves faced with a Cherub - it is very easy to add several kg's in paint ::).
Am looking forward to seeing a used (but obviously new) boat at Ali Pali.
To aid the Pro-Grip debate.
-Any water quasi permanantly trapped under the pro-grip will be included in your all up weight as it is there when the boat is effectively "dry". It leaves the shore with you, stays with you round the course and is still there with you when you return to the shore - see the very boring debate about Saftey Kit. As it looks like your Ellway has room for a few kg's of grip/water trapped under it there is not much to worry about.
-If it helps we had significant joy with Plexus for the pro-grip. It look a serious effort to remove some when looking for the bung holes we had accidentally covered over and sets in minutes.
Phil, the boat is looking excellent and at a good weight, I know you will enjoy the unique feeling of sailing something you have built yourself.
The Pro-Grip does absorb a bit of water while sailing so there will be a slight weight penalty in sailing weight against the measured weight which should be done in a dry condition. However it is well worth it as crew rebellion is very bad for speed ;)
I think that the water gets trapped where there are air bubbles when the Pro-Grip is applied, having a needle or sharp knife to pop the bubbles when sticking down can help.
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WOW she looks great guys you must be very proud of all your hard work. I also agree that we have a boat for the dinghy show.
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Thanks for your kind words.
I believe but have not checked that Antidote came out of the spray booth at 35kgs. There for we are 0.4kg lighter at the same point.
In my veiw that is noise and the comparison is not made as a competitive comparison.
The weight does not include the jib track, pole, progrip, fittings, sock etc. I understand Antidote had 7kgs of correctors. As Darryl points out we could therefore cope with a 5kg drop in hull weight. i beleive this debate will require as said before a greater proportion of boats being in this position.
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H & I managed to drop in to Phils over the weekend - she looks fantastic, even better than the photos suggest!
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blimey Roland, you get about a bit dont you ?
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Yes a relaxing weekend.
Friday: Utrecht - Central London
Saturday: In work for most of day except Central London - Sidcup to replace self tacker on Exultant.
Sunday: In work 8am - 9.45, drive to Bristol to look at house (offer excepted :-) ), 2 hour's break to look at Thornbury with Phil and to drool over his boat. Back top the office till 10pm. 10-1045 repair defective light cluster in church. Sleep
Monday: fly back to Utrecht
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Are you including prayer to improve the succes of your car maintenance or repairing a light in a church.
If Roland had his way our House would be called 16 Grimald Place. he can never find it!
it was good to catch up again and show off Thornbury on a windy day. Couldn't go sailing because the water was 1.5m below the end of the slip way.
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If your house was 16 grimald place he could use flu powder , port key, or just apperate. but this is getting silly!
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So does that mean we might have another Cherub to come and play at Thornbury next year?
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I think there may be someone searching the site for application forms. Was really taken with Thornbury - it has a similar feel to the club I will probably always refer to as home (Wilsonain...).
Need to speak to Mr. Croote - there are 3 boats in striking distance of Brisol, so hopefully we will find a good compromise for summer and winter...
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SImon, if you need directions let me know. If you have sat nav the post code is BS375EU. Not quite as good as apparating but you will find us.
We have laughed before as a bright pink boat towed by a red polo has driven past our house twice in as many minutes.
Don't use flu powder! It may hurt on entry. Both chimneys are blocked up!
Boat work has now got foils faired and painted. Supports for the t foil cleats fitted faired in and painted.
Ready for pro grip now.
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phil,
where did you get the self-tacker track thats on e-numbers?
john
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It's the Ronstan I section track. I got it and the car from Ovingtons. Cost about £170. You may be able to find it cheaper somewhere else. This track is very stiff so can be supported at middle and ends only. it comes prebent and is overlength for a Cherub. It is used on the 49er and 800 so RS may have a price for it. otherwise once you have the item code you may be able to find it cheaper direct from Ronstan.
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phil,
where did you get the self-tacker track thats on e-numbers?
john
I've got a Ronstan track and car you can have for peanuts if you can find someone who will bend it to the shape you want.
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Momentus weekend. recieved sails on friday morning. Yippee! they look to good to use though.
Friday evening marked and cut out material for under cover.
Saturday went to parents for weekend to help Dad celebrate his birthday. While there we sewed together the Spinnaker/Pole sock and under cover on my Mums sewing machine.
Sunday evening found that undercover was a nice neat fit.
now hand sewing some webbing on to tie straps to. This bit will take a while. Undercover effectively cost us £16 in materials and is waterproof, light and a similar colour to the boat.
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Were planning to launch for a first sail on Saturday.
Our friend at BCYC was moving house this weekend so we went to frampton instead.
After rigging up putting the sails on for the first time (they look good) and getting all the controls to the correct length etc. two things became apparent. First it was getting dark. Second the lake was frozen.
So we packed up and went home. With a very minor to do list.
With these now done the boat is finished!
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Great news!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj6nKSqmCTo&feature=related
(rig tension!)
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any pictures phil???
great news!!!
also do you still have that dvd with pictures of your build that you sent to rob (rs405)
john
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As far as I know I am not expecting a CD! However, if Phill would be kind enough to send me one it would be very much appreciated. Well done on reaching the end of your build. I think its probably a bit cold to be sailing at the moment though.
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it might not have been you then ..... :S
but it was someone
also, man up and sail in the snow..... there is added incentive to not capsize
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man up and sail in the snow..... there is added incentive to not capsize
Floating ice, on the other hand is not good for new paint and is best avoided.
Thinks: I wonder at what sort of temperatures the properties of our composite layups start getting significantly compromised. I do know that at not too many degrees below 0C a Topper starts getting very brittle and will shatter if struck.
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hmmm.........good point i feel like i am endagering cheese by sailing now :(
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I sent a CD to Doug in Dubai mostly because he does not have another boat to look at for inspitration.
I can send another copy to you both if you would be good enough to provide an address. PM. me with the details.
In cold temperatures the properties of composities do change. resins become stronger so you could expect a stiffer boat. The problem is that it also becomes more brittle and is more likely to crack or shatter than flex a little when hit. The epoxy will be affected more than the fibres so fillets are more at risk. These differences start to occure bellow zero degrees but are probably not a great concern until -10. By this point the water will either be solid or you will so it doesn't matter beyond there.
At hot temperatures composit structures go floppy when above their glass transition Temperature Tg. We are not talking shade temperatures from the weather forecast but the actual temperature experienced by the boat etc. In direct sun the local temperature can be much higher than the surounding air temp. black boats beware!
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Great news!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj6nKSqmCTo&feature=related
(rig tension!)
those ice boat are great. Could of used one at Burghfield over the last few days! Not totally sure why they run with the rigs canted over, you also see the 'D' class ( I think ) with realy bendy mast that look like there going to break! Its the mast mid section that bends to leeward no the top section, which is even stranger. Love to know why this is done.
found a pic...
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[the mast mid section that bends to leeward no the top section, which is even stranger. Love to know why this is done.
Its because they are over rotating wing masts - because they won't bend for and aft the tip bends up to windwards under leech/kicker loads. It can be very good for twist management, but how on earth sails get cut for a rig that bends like that is beyond me.
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Thanks Jim.
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Here are a couple of poor photos of E-numbers.
First with the boat rigged in the dying light, the second tucked up in the garage in her smart undercover.
Waiting for warmer weather.
Are the D class ice yachts limmited on sail area?
If so getting the mast tip to bend to windward acts to power up the rig. And increase leach tension. 420's do this by lengthening spreaders.
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That looks great. You must be proud of your hard work. How did you do the jib in the end? Have you got it rigged side to side or did you use the tower?
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Looks excellent Phil and Sarah! Well done!
I'd probably want to put some pro grip on those wing supports at the back too... you never know when you might need it! (for reference, the badger has pro grip on the wing supports AND the gantry. all have been used in anger!)
Do you have any more photos of the sails? They look good.
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Top job! (best wishes from Norway)
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cheers guys,
Sorry no more pictures of the sails at present. They were a good fit in my opinion but time will tell when we get the boat on the water and have some tweaking time.
The jib sheet system is similar to the other elways going forward from the main sheet via a swivel cleat on the turret to the starboard track end plate. It turns through a block tied through the end plate and goes to the car. With two blocks on the car and one on the clew you get a 2:1 purchase here. The sheet then leads to the starboard ear where it is normally dead ended. The sheet is then led forward and turns round a block under the shute and is tied to a single pulley. The fine tune leads round the block on the end of the sheet back to the mast and then out to either side giving a 4:1 purchase for the crew to operate. The tails of the jib fine tune lead back to the mast and the slack goes forward under the sock on an elastic tack up.
The ropes run smothly so it should work technically. It really come down to how we operate it.
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Phil, did you rig it up at Frampton or are my eyes decieving me?
Looking forward to sailing against you, let the game begin!!!
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Yes it was Frampton.
I notice on the news today that shallows on the banks of the severn are frozen!