UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Sailing Stories => Topic started by: WOP2821 on September 16, 2015, 10:32:23 AM
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Hi Guys,
Have been working on Cherub stuff here in OZ lately so was just catching up on what is happening in the UK Cherub scene by checking out your site, nice work guys.
I did however look through the History section and noticed a small error.
In the bit that covered the 1980 Worlds is says that Wop would have won but for a (well deserved) disqualification for barging at a mark. This is incorrect as she was cleared of that attempt to rub her out but fell foul to a charge of "windward boat must keep clear" as she passed the current UK Champ of the time, whom were still dealing with some issues in their boat, some distance after the mark.
As for the "well deserved" comment, all I can say is that it's a bit harsh.
May I suggest that whoever can, just change it to "would have won but for a disqualification". There was no barging or any other reckless sailing that day by Wop, just a mind blowing display of coming back from around 22nd place to third after a big shift that caught out the fleet on the first reach, there was only one way of stopping her that day, and history showed what that was.
Cheers,
Phil Smith.
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Think you should come back for a rematch.
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Hi Phil,
It's always good to hear from our Australian cousins. How is the Australian fleet doing these days? The last time we competed with you was back in 1995/96, when the Aussie fleet was big and highly competitive. It was a great regatta. Since then I don't think there has been a great deal of communication between the 2 fleets, I guess partly due to the differing design routes we each took, but a bit of dialogue can only be a good thing.
I'm not old enough to remember the 1980 Worlds, but I'm sure Jim Champ, who wrote the report you refer to, will be along shortly to comment.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Its a long time ago, and I was only there for a day or so. Its funny, its one event I never managed to find a contemporary report for when I was getting the old reports together.
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Wow Jim, I'm really quite blown away by that view, up until that day I had never had a protest lodged against me, and never have since, any infringements i may have been caught up in on the water being dealt with by the usual penalty turns.
If in fact we were barging at any time then we would have lost protests on that point, yes there was one protest on barging which we managed to show we didn't (so obviously we don't barge) and there were no other incidents or other protests on that point at all in the whole regatta, so I just don't know where our reckless reputation came from and it really upsets me to to know that is what is made known.
Not sure if you were there on presentation night Jim, but on that night not only were we dealing with having lost the worlds due to the 'windward boat must keep clear" protest but was drawn up onto the stage to be presented with a rule book, which having been born in England and being brought up by a father that was an RAF fighter pilot, I took with thanks and a stiff upper lip. Just between you, me and the gatepost, I have never been so insulted in all my life.
I made many good friends at that regatta from all over the world and I sure that they do not share your view of us.
We gave plans of Wop to the Kiwis and the Italians and have always been proud of the input into the Cherub class that we had been able to make and continue to this day with our sails, I wish that the northern and southern hemisphere fleets never split, it would be great to have a worlds again.
That's all for now, happy to contribute in the future.
Regards,
Phil
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Not sure if you were there on presentation night Jim, but on that night not only were we dealing with having lost the worlds due to the 'windward boat must keep clear" protest but was drawn up onto the stage to be presented with a rule book, which having been born in England and being brought up by a father that was an RAF fighter pilot, I took with thanks and a stiff upper lip. Just between you, me and the gatepost, I have never been so insulted in all my life.
Not having been there on the day ( as I was not born for a further 5 years... ), I would suggest that the presentation of a rule book was probably a tongue in cheek little dig at any perceived on the water misdemeanors rather than something which any offence should have been taken from.
For the record, other trophys which we now present include an 'Ashes Trophy' for the team whose boat falls apart the most, the 'Didgereedon't' which is for the team who are expected to do well but then fail spectacularly and a dodgy S&M Style spanking paddle for the person who behaves worst off the water. These are presented in jest due to the light hearted nature of the class and fully expect that your rule book was in a similar vain. After all... you just nearly won the worlds, hardly a bad achievement even if you are saying that you 'lost' them!
Nice to have you on the forum Phil. Please feel to get involved with any other conversations as we would appreciate your input on a variety of topic.
Cheers,
Tim
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Hi Guys, I've just read the report in regard to the previous post.
Upon reading the section ('well deserved disqualification"), I broke into a bit of a giggle. I have known Bugs for what seems a lifetime, we worked together at Elvstrom Sails in Australia where we both achieved our Trade in Sailmaking and also had the privilege of sailing against him and his crew Vickie Weekes at Georges River sailing Club for many years. During this time and through all the interclub, States and Nationals i believe they were never in a situation where they ended up in a protest room, i never heard a bad word spoken about their sportsmanship and they were always there to help whether you were a top performing boat or at the other end of the fleet.
To this day nothing has changed, Bugs runs a very successful Sailmaking business and still has plenty do with Cherubs. In fact Sails designed by Bugs are being used by the current Cherub National and State Champion here in Australia.
I'm a bit confused how someone who said they were only there for a few days could write such accusations in this article!
At 63 I'm still building and sailing Cherubs and with great interest like to keep in touch with what's happening in the UK, great to see there is still such enthusiasm where Cherubs are concerned, maybe another world Championship could be on the cards one day!!!
All The Best, Spice
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Hi Tim,
I am aware that the the gift of a rule book was a tongue in cheek gesture and I took it as such,(I did actually need one!) but if you were there at the time (and had been in my shoes)you would maybe thought it not the very best of humour. I was far from being the only one in the room with that sentiment.
My main concern has always been not so much the loss of the worlds, but of the picture that has somehow been painted of us as a bunch of hoons on the water and perpetuated in the history section of this site and by Jim's comments above. I just don't get it.
A little history, due to personal reasons I was not able to get to the regatta until the evening before the first heat, having not stepped on the boat for quite some time and being a bit out of sorts after the trip from Australia, the first race was predictably shabby, the toe straps even came undone and I went overboard, you name it, it happened, maybe we got in someones way when we were upside down, I don't know, but we came in 19th and I can't recall any bad vibes against us, we were hardly a threat at that stage.
After that it was more settled, the boat was magic, we just started and sailed away, we had two firsts, two seconds and two thirds for the rest of the regatta (losing one of the thirds to the protest)
What I am trying to say is, that except for the race where we had to come from behind we really had little contact with many boats after maybe 1 min after the start, so I am still at loss over Jim's comments about issues in other races!
Anyway, yes we lost the regatta, lack of preparation (causing the 19th place at the start of a regatta, all we would have needed was a 16th and the protest wouldn't have changed the result) and allowing ourselves to be drawn into a position to be vulnerable to protest was our downfall.
The Kiwis put in the preparation and managed to stay out of trouble, and that's the lesson team.
Think we'll put this one to bed now and talk about more constructive things.
Catch you all later,
Phil
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Well, at this distance there's no point in generating bad feeling, and I must have written that sentence 20 years ago or something. I've sent Tim some different words which I suggest he puts in (I don't have any access to change the site), and I've also removed the comment so its not there for posterity.
FWIW my father was a carrier pilot on HMAS Sydney in Korea.
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Report has been updated.
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At the 95/96 Worlds at Botany Bay, Ken and I were called up on to the stage to be awarded with the "Splash 'n' Swim" trophy for most impressive capsize of the regatta. This basically consisted of a pair of swimming goggles each, which we were then obliged to wear in the bar for the rest of the evening. All good fun though.
Phil - I agree it's a shame the Cherub fleets have gone separate ways. If we had been able to keep some international link going it would have benefitted all of us. The UK Cherub is a rather different beast now compared even to the early '90's, with a lot more sail area, more beam, a narrower hull and twin trapezes. I believe the Aus boats have also developed, but not so radically. Is there any desire amongst the Australians to develop the class rules further?
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Thank you Jim, it is very much appreciated :)
Hi Neil, the Aussie rules have had a few minor tweaks, mainly in the sail department.
The rules in measuring the jibs has been changed to make it easier to make jibs that fit the different boat setups. There used to be a maximum luff length which put boats with a shorter foot at a disadvantage, now its been changed to an area style system (luff x LP x .5) with some head size/ roach controls. It was a sensible move and with this the jibs have become a little larger.
The mainsail measurement has changed a little to allow for what they call a square top, but it falls way short of that, Wally won the last nationals with their old main to the old measurements so it really makes no difference to performance. It was a bit funny really, it took about three years and many meetings for them to make the changes, they really are quite a conservative bunch.
The same midpoint rules apply to the hull so there's not too much more that can be done there, there is a new boat being built but I don't know too much about it at this stage.
Not sure if you have seen the Mathews boats that have become the norm here but they are basically a Wop but ignore the old "fair and continuous" rule to shave off as much excess boat as possible.
Anyway it will be interesting to see how the new boat fairs.
The split happened after I had moved on from Cherubs so am not that privy to reasons why. I can certainly see the reasons for your development of the boat, the natural pursuit of more speed and more fun. Down here we have our other Skiff classes to sail so turning the Cherub into a 12' skiff probably wasn't as necessary .
Dose a Southern hemisphere hull still meet the Northern rules?
Cheers,
Phil
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Yeah, the old rules boats still measure.
What, I think, killed any hope of reuniting the class was the 97 hull shape rules.
On reflection what perhaps should have been tried in the 80s was floating the mid length restriction so it could be met further aft rather than narrowing it. We have a floating rise of floor rule on the IC now and it seems to work Ok and is less brutally type forming. However I doubt even that would have passed the AUS vote.
The Matthews type is an interesting thing: first draw a fair bottom then viciously slice off to the measurement points. Better than bumps and lumps like The 14s that's for sure.
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Apart from say Aussies sticking the larger rig and extra trap wire on their boats (Which may mean a few too many other mods), has anyone considered sailing Cherubs there to the old (southern) rule.
The Cherub class here is getting stronger again, a few more clubs are taking off and Cherubs are at the core of them. Quite a few older boats, but updated as best as possible tend to emerge to begin with, then newer boats appear as the fleet grows, the older boats actually fair ok if they get pointed in the right direction.
The popularity seems to be based on the fact that they are affordable, high performance enough but relatively easy to sail. I was wondering if the changes you guys have made, although great for higher performance, may make the classes target audience a little smaller due to the perceived increase in difficulty to sail. How are your numbers going?
As I mentioned before we have 12 'skiffs to satisfy a need for more out there performance, so understand the move you guys made with your boats. But would it make sense to reestablish the old rule boats as an addition to your Association (Cherubs and Super Cherubs, Two hearts on the Supers), may help in attracting more entry into the class and then the ability to move up to Supers.
Then we would be closer to being able to run a Worlds of some sort again.
Just a thought,
Cheers,
Phil
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Not a hope Phil, anything that would measure to the Australian rules is going to be built before 1980, and almost certainly not significantly active in the last 30 years, which in turn means they would be hopelessly outdated by current southern boats. The only boat off hand I can think of that might be fairly readily made to fit current Australian rules (slightly smaller sails) would, ironically for the topic, be Flat Stanley.
There is a sort of entry level thing going on with single string boats to the UK rules as per 1997, but those are still a long way from the Australian spec with narrower mid length at the chines and probably slightly bigger rags.
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Also in this country the 29ers are very popular so I can't see anything like that working.
Our 97 rules boats are along the lines you talk about and we keep trying to boost interest in them.
I think our average wind is lower than yours which does account for the bigger rigs.
A 97 in a blow is still the most fun sailing I have had especially with twin wire and no T foil.
But an05 boat delivers a good sail more of the time. On Sunday for example we were apparent wind sailing at speed in less than 10knts. 12 foot skiffs don't really work here with the greater variations in wind strength we can get in one days sailing.
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Does the dog meet the aussie rules? Or were the boats at the 95 world's not on equal terms?
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Ah, I always wondered why 12's exist there.
The 29er is the Cherubs main rival here, it has the backing of the YA as the lead into the 49er so it has been tough, but there seems to be a bit of a groundswell rising against the control that the YA has had over what clubs sail in it's pursuit to obtain Gold medals. (it benefits so few in the long run)
A lot of our very good junior classes and in turn the clubs have suffered due to the range of boats the YA has said they must use in order to get funding and coaching assistance.
A lot of clubs are now moving away from the YA model and back to the more traditional Australian sailing scene and the Cherub is very much part of that.
Funny Jim mentions Flat Stanley, Wop is actually still racing here in WA, she is a bit soft and heavy due to the deck mods received over the years but believe or not still managed to finish nearly half way up the order at the Nationals a couple of years ago (so how far have the new OZ really come?)
I have been sailing Moths over the last 4 years and will be finishing up with them this Xmas so am looking at the next project, that will most likely be a Javelin ( a big comfy Cherub) one of the reasons being that we have Interdominion Championships with NZ and I will be able to line up against my old mate Phil McNeil (Foreign Affair) for a bit of a rematch, should be fun.
Do you guys have Javs in the UK?
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No, and then again yes. In the UK a Javelin is a long thin boat, between a 505 and an Fd.
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Ah yes, have seen those, don't want one.
The other Spencer boat we have here is the Flying Ant, the 10'6" little brother of the Cherub. They've just made the conversion to asymmetric spinnakers, getting that to happen was like pulling teeth but now it's done the class is taking off again, a great trainer, it's got trapez and all.
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The Flying Ant is an awesome ship. My 1 year old twins are in line for one when they get a little older! (we don't have them here... yet)
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how many can we fit in a container?
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how many can we fit in a container?
One year olds or flying ants?
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how many can we fit in a container?
I had a look at their website:
www.flyingants.org.au
There isn't a great deal of technical info on there at the moment, but it looks like the original John Spencer concept was that you could knock one of these together from a couple of sheets of plywood and some glue. A few spare fittings from that box of random boaty stuff at the back of the garage, and Bob's yer uncle, a Cherub feeder class is born!
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I have emailed their class president to see if any plans are available......
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Great to hear you guys could be keen on the Ants, we used to step easily from Ants into cherubs once around 15-16yrs of age (depending on how fast you were growing at that stage)
If your kids are in Optis don't make the same mistake that has been made here and keep them in them too long. They should be out of Optis by 12 and have a good 3-4yrs up their sleeves in Ants.
They can start as crews in Ants easily by 10yrs old, and will have a ton more fun and have much more relevant things to learn. And now they have Asymmetric, pull one string to set spinnakers, they can't wait to get out there.
If I can recommend anything I would suggest that you make the spinnaker a bit bigger than what we have here at the moment(even though it was increased over the old symmetrical one), it seems that it's so much easier to manage that it could have been made bigger. The rule here is simply 9m max perimeter, could be 10m.
At the moment Ants have the old front bulkhead up to the foredeck setup, but have always had a false floor cockpit. At this stage we have been fitting spinnaker chutes through the foredeck and out through the bulkhead into the cockpit (John Ilett I sail Moths with made a mould) with a small net sock to contain what spinnaker comes into the cockpit.
Spinnaker pole is made from a used windsurf mast, the base of the mast is the launcher, goes from bulkhead to out the bow and the top of the mast (which should fit inside) becomes the pole.
Hope the Ant association gets back to you soon.