UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: JP233 on November 29, 2014, 09:10:15 PM
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Just wondering if anyone could inform me about a few boats that ive heard of (design, what they are like to sail)
Patterson 8 (listed as in dubi) any pics/news?)
Appleby 1
Paterson 7a
squid (The design interests me, a round p7?)
specail source
Butt plug
Also, what was aqua marina (RIP) like to sail? much different to a STD p7
Any info given would be a joy to read (im sad like that)
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Just wondering if anyone could inform me about a few boats that ive heard of (design, what they are like to sail)
Butt plug
Only boat being Mango Jam, first cherub i ever sailed, total legend, main memory was that it had small foils that didn't really work until moving at decent pace (Same characteristic as the original rudder on Dangerous Beans (Similar to born Slippy?) but that was fine as Gav never went slowly
Also, what was aqua marina (RIP) like to sail? much different to a STD p7'
Aqua was hugely different to sail to the other p7s, an ergonomic masterpiece, lower COG improved the experience hugely, something i find a major annoyance of the other ones
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I exchanged some emails with Andy P about the Paterson 8 a while back. He told me that it's a development of his successful P7 design. Same flat bottom panel, low sharp chines and near-vertical topsides, but with the centre of buoyancy and max chine width pulled aft. He designed it specifically for Doug who lives in Dubai, where the water conditions are a bit different from here. Apparently it's reliably 10-15 kts windspeed and flat, warm water. Andy reckons the P8 might be a bit too sharp and difficult to sail in our variable (cold, wavy, windy at times) UK conditions. Something with a shade more curvature might actually be quicker round the course.
Doug got the hull completed and painted and even got it in the water for a leak test. But I'm not at all sure he ever actually got it fitted out or sailing. I believe he was spending a lot of time travelling around the Middle East and USA with work so spare time was at a premium. I'll drop him a line today and see if he has any progress to report.
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The Squid banged too many corners on design really I think. The only time I sailed it the jib traveller broke fairly early, but as I dimly recall it wasn't at all an easy boat to handle.
I thought Mango was a super boat and was very surprised no-one else built one. Curiously she seemed to go off the boil a bit when Gav replaced his home made sails with commercial ones.
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AquaMarina was from the same plug as the other P7's except that the hull stopped at the upper flare and instead of solid wings it had tubular wings. I was trying to minimise the hull and keep things simple as much as I could. The crew deck was a bit lower than the other P7's which lowered the CofG but it was just too low and there was often a puddle on the crew deck in light winds.
At the Nationals one year I swapped with Patrick in LRN for the sail in after racing and it was an interesting comparison. LRN like many other cherubs at the time had a mainsheet post which made the cockpit feel really crowded, the other big thing I noticed was that from a helm hiking position with the big foredeck flairs I could not see the bow in the water. I had not realised how much time I spent looking at it on Aqua trying to get the trim right.
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Was wondering if anybody knows anything about Squid- who the owners are and where she is?:)
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I exchanged some emails with Andy P about the Paterson 8 a while back. He told me that it's a development of his successful P7 design. Same flat bottom panel, low sharp chines and near-vertical topsides, but with the centre of buoyancy and max chine width pulled aft. He designed it specifically for Doug who lives in Dubai, where the water conditions are a bit different from here. Apparently it's reliably 10-15 kts windspeed and flat, warm water. Andy reckons the P8 might be a bit too sharp and difficult to sail in our variable (cold, wavy, windy at times) UK conditions. Something with a shade more curvature might actually be quicker round the course.
Doug got the hull completed and painted and even got it in the water for a leak test. But I'm not at all sure he ever actually got it fitted out or sailing. I believe he was spending a lot of time travelling around the Middle East and USA with work so spare time was at a premium. I'll drop him a line today and see if he has any progress to report.
Flat bottom, sharp chine, vertical topsides, sharp and difficult to sail, built by Andy P - now that rings a bell, where have I seen a boat like that ;)
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I sailed LRN (P7) at Bala once. It was a joy to sail. It tacked like no ther cherub I've ever sailed, and soaked low on the runs with relative ease. Then the breeze picked up enough to wire, the combined righting moment that Si and I had to offer was greater than what it was designed for. The mast bowed at spreader level, the main flattened, the leech opened and the rig slackened off. It felt quicker for us to hike and only wire when absolutely necessary. Downwind the relatively aft position of the board, fore position of the mast and flat kite meant it preferred to go with the breeze rather than hot it up too much. The flat long footed main that could easily go out to the shroud in even light breeze (relative kicker angle) helped soaking too.
I had a brief sail in Aquamarina from Castle Cove when Will and Lucy had her. It was a blasting weekend and the big orange kite had destroyed another rudder stock gudgeon on Mango, so I was watching from the beach as Si was rallying to Bristol and back to pick up the spare blade. I'm not sure if Will and Lucy were exhausted or took pity upon me but I was handed Aqua and a keen lad who wanted a go. It was offshore and breezy, so kite up straight away. Once it was up we broke free of the lee of the land and where in the proper breeze, quite a lot of it. My crew, although keen, was not so steady on his feet. The kite was ragging away up front unsettling us a bit, witches my still keen crew seemingly grabbing ang pulling every line but the sheet. Finally he found it and heaved in metres of sheet, all of it. The knot had undone itself from all the flogging. We went for a gybe as the other sheet was still on but went in. Getting going again took several minutes. My lack of experience with Aqua and this crew meant we would go back over before we were settled enough to sheet on. I recall Clive mentioning somewhere that one of the reasons for the solid wings on A&E was the added stability you get when slow speed manouvering over a racked boat, this is definitely the case (although the difference was far subtler on Badgers/Subtle). Anyway, we went back in. The keen crew seemed exhausted, or perhaps he'd had enough of me? But I liked the racked arrangement on Aqua for twin wiring, much better than the solid tanks in Mango.
I only saw the Appleby at the Largo nationals, it looked decent enough to me. something makes me think it was v light.
The squid was visibly non symetrical in the bow sections, Graham D got it going on occasion at the PYC nationals.
Mainsheets posts were only there for the helm to hold onto something when it got VERY exciting.
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I now have the Appleby 1, it was built with solid wings, but after the first sail slipping around I cut the foam sections out from the wings to make it into a racked boat.
It is much more foregiving than Aqua I seem to be able to get away with much bigger mistakes without getting chucked in. The hull is wider than the P7 at the chine and above the chine it flairs out a bit more which helps the resurve stability. The mast is further back than Aqua, and the foredeck is very high which makes it difficult to get the weight fwd in the light. I think the T-foil has made a big difference as without it I felt that the crew needed to be infront of the shroud going up wind.
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It's because you are holding it wrong Gav! ( as Apple might say )
It was intended for :
light crews, windward/leeward courses, and average winds ( ie 5 - 15kts)
So if you are heavy, sail in strong winds, and do tight reaching, the boat/rig doesn't like it.
The P7 was designed to exploit the lighter winds where Cherubs are traditionally not so good. It would have been hard to get faster high wind performance, but there were big gains to be made in light / medium winds.
For the normal average conditions you get at Nationals, it seemed to work OK, with 5 nationals wins 2000 - 2005, winning in mostly light / medium conditions, but also winning a few windy races, and even in 2005 twin wiring with the big rig and heavier crew
The best gain seemed to be downwind, sailing much deeper than the others, getting apparent wind sailing much earlier, and still powered up sailing fast but 10 degrees lower.
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While tinkering with shiny today I did think if these boats were as good as people say, why did no one else make one? Especially aquamaina, very highly spoken of even now, why not a copy or a mk2?
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Some people like a little stability in their lives.
There was a rumour that they were difficult to sail and that you needed to be good to sail one. As I proved and as I am sure you will, this is not the case.
It's almost like some other cherub sailors see the P7 in the same way some people in other classes see cherubs.
Also three built isn't bad for a cherub.
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I suspect that Dave has hit the nail partially on the head. With the few new builds in the class, it is only a short time between design changes. Hence we only build a few of each design, this is also why it's difficult to get builders to commit to Cherubs as the moulds go out of fashion before paying for themselves.
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There was a P7 built in the US, but I don't know if it ever hit the water. After Aqua was built there was only Mango, Pocket Rocket and Loco built in the UK before the discussions about twin wires starting in 03-04 and the bigger rigs in 05.
With the bigger rigs people were talking about wanting more stability rather than less, so the slug which had a reputation of being eisier to sail than the P7 was used for a few boats before the 05 optimised designs came along.
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Skip's USA P7 is 95% finished. ( and has been that way for a few years ) 97 rules rig with CAWS sails.
Not so much design changes as rule changes every year >:(
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There is a rumour that Patrick Cunningham has brought his P7 "Little Red Number" into the garage for some modifications. Apparently he is cutting a chunk off the back end of the boat and adding some length to the bow, with the net effect of bringing the centre of buoyancy aft and creating a finer angle of entry. Nice idea, if you're brave enough......
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True but at the speed Patrick is going it would be quicker to leave the boat vertically and let the resin move to the transom in the way old glass is thicker at the bottom than the top.
Sorry Patrick
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True but at the speed Patrick is going it would be quicker to leave the boat vertically and let the resin move to the transom in the way old glass is thicker at the bottom than the top.
Sorry Patrick
LIKE
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The Squid banged too many corners on design really I think.
JimC, can you expand on this? id really like to have a good nose around her and her design philosophy.