UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: craig_guthrie on June 22, 2008, 05:15:37 PM
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I will be putting a boat together over the coming winter. Looking to buy second hand but good condition sails. Most likely this season's race gear I would imagine. Any ideas and prices? Who makes the best new Cherub Sails?
THanks.
Craig
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Arguably Fyfe are making the best sails around at the moment but there's loads of manufactures in the fleet. Some that jump to mind are:
Fyfe,
Hyde,
P&B,
Red Eye,
RMW.
Fyfe sails (combined with C-tech masts. Both from New Zealand) have won several nationals.
Hyde make a suit of 'Cherub sails'.
As far as I know, you have to take you boat down to P&B and they measure it up and design, make and fit your sails on site. That might be a bit difficult for someone in Nova Scotia! I see no reason why they wouldn't design you a set if you sent them the measurements of you baot (mast position, mast height etc).
Loco Perro's hardly used Red Eyes are for sale (£700) but the kite is worn out. Red Eye's have won a few nationals and seem to last for a long time.
I don't know much about RMW. Both 'Aqua Marina' and 'Primal Scream' (both put together by Phil Alderson) have/had RMW sails.
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Rowsell bassed in the South West are making a few sails. Shiny and pocket Rocket have both had sails from them.
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Hi Craig,
Sorry about paypal delay and I hope it is all sorted out now. Thanks for joining the association.
If you'd like an excuse, then our excuse is that both Dan the treasurer and me the secretary are boatbuilding to the max atm, so other duties are sometimes neglected!
Are you REALLY in Nova Scotia? If so then I think you'll be the first Cherub in Canada - excellent news!
Would you mind filling us in on your story?
Best wishes,
Will
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Hi Will,
No problem with the Paypal stuff. Thanks for the message. Yes, we are really in Nova Scotia and this is a great place to sail skiffs.
I have sailed 14, 12s, 49er, 18s, 505s. I now coach sailing for the coach the Canadian Paralympic team in the 2.4 and Skud. My wife is a former Europe Dinghy sailor for Canada. The wife (Rachel) says that I need boat by the time I turn 40 so I had better get on it...So, I have been watching Cherubs for a long time, never sailed one but I am pretty sure it's the boat for us...
I have modest boat building and sail making experience as well as all the other junk that comes with boats. The winter here is a perfect time to build a one off male plug boat. Currently I am looking at the Banshee and Elway designs for the build and most likely buying second hand gear from you folks.
In building the boat, we want to have the most current design possible. We will not be shipping our boat to the UK to race but we definately will be interested in taking a holiday to charter and race in the UK if chartering is a possibility.
That's the skinny. Thanks.
Craig
Thanks,
Craig
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Hi Craig,
Thanks for the skinny. You are very welcome to come Cherub sailing in the UK at any time - but do please give us a bit more warning than the hour we sometimes get from the Australians...
The nationals this year are 27th - 30th August. I can't think of a boat going spare right now but there could well be one that I don't know about. This year we have 2 French boats at the nationals: A Canadian visitor would make it an even more international affair. Also, the week after the nationals is an event in Carnac in France which is our annual race against the French fleet.
We can organise pickups from the airport and sleepover capability as well.
I have PMed you with Kevin Ellway's email. He always happy to communicate on his favourite subject. He is pals with Dave Lee, so he'll let you have his email.
If you come along this summer you can check out the sails and spars. People regularly make their own poles and booms, and their own masts slightly less regularly. People have even made their own sails too (but not spinnakers). A look around could save you some cash.
Best,
Will
PS What is a 'skinny'?
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The yachts and yachting class page found here http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=42&c=10 (http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=42&c=10) has some information on what people were running at the nationals last year if that is any help.
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Hi Craig,
I've PM'ed you.
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Craig,
From my year and a bit in the class I found the answer to the question what's the best gear to have in the class rather difficult to find. The main reason is that the rules allow boats to be customised to the sailor's needs to what is good for one pair will not be good for another.
Fyfes have made a lot of sails for the class recently but each set is bespoke for the boat concerned, mast position mast stiffness and crew weight. As i'm sure you are aware, it is important to match the mast, sails to your boat. Matching available second hand gear may be harder than starting with new.
If you do come over to the nationals we can show you some of the poles, booms, foils and rudder stoocks that we have made over the last few years. It may be possible to arrange a sticky project to give you insight into some home building techniques.
If you are thinking about an existing hull form I suggest you order the hull shells and save the time building a jig.
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I love my Hyde sails. Now we are getting used to it think it is a very efficient rig and (together with the rest of the package) was beating decent RS800s on the water on Saturday in a variety of wind strengths.
Hydes have a gigantic amount of experience in high performance asy classes from one designs through to dev classes (I14, B14, Int Canoe, Cherub). They are very pro-active with their R&D and tecnichal director Mike Lennon took the effort to spend a morning in a rib looking at my Hyde sails recently to work on the next further refined set. Mike has been actively campaigning our big sister the International14 successfuly for years and much of that is filtered down into the Cherub design.
Easy for them to adjust luff curve to fit varying mast profiles and jib dimensions to fit different boat geometries.
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Time for some shameless advertising for work....theres always Alverbanks (just as ross missed it off his list of sail makers!)
We have made some 12 ft skiff sails in the last year or two, and loads of int canoe sails - some crazy sails for them! Might poss be making some Cherub sails during this summer...
From a sail makers point of view, depending what you want out of your sails, and your sail maker, makes a difference to who you go for. Some sail makers are more flexible and can do what you want, where as others are less likely to do differnet things for you - they will have a stock design.
I know we are pretty good at doing different sails for people - but that stems from Kevan Bloors work with the N12 fleet over the years :)
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Whats the situation with Red Eyes now then? Is Andrew not involved anymore and if so as Kevin Bloor ( Alverbanks ) was bought by Red Eye what's the deal? Does he have Andrews sail patterns / programs?
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Alverbanks was never bought by anyone else....red eye, alverbanks and evolution tried teaming up for a while, but it just didnt work out. So all went back to their seperate companies.
As far as what patterns we have etc, im not sure what Kevan has kept - would be best ringing and talking to him.
I will be making some sails for a couple of Cherubs before the nationals, but not using the red eye designs, Kevan and myself will be doing the designs using existing rigs and some new ideas.... :)
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the buying out thing... my mistake.
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the buying out thing... my mistake.
No problem :)
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Attached pics of Hyde's latest 2008 Cherub offering. Very exciting!
Slightly shorter top batten but a straighter leach (my original is 'indented' in the top half of the leach)
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They look good pete.
Straight leech....hmmmm, not bad thinking ;) ....finished the pattern for our main earlier ;D so hopefully will be marking out and sticking it on monday
Will put some pics of our new jib up over the weekend - sailing with it last saturday, and it seemed to have a lot of power - think hoppy was happy with it. will get pics up asap :)
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I'm just impressed the Pete's new sails pic also includes the buggy.
Only shame is that Kate will probably be a better sailor than the rest of us before she can walk ;)
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(my original is 'indented' in the top half of the leach)
thought so... did they blade too early?
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Daryl,
Sorry for late reply - I did not notice your post.
My understanding is that an American I14 sailor was very succesful with an 'indented' or 'concave' leach and Hydes developed that. The theory is that vortecies/turbulence/drag (whatever the right term) are more concentrated at the corner ie the tip of the square top rather than coming off the whole leach.
There is only a tiny difference between my last years and this years Hydes which is 30mm less on the square top which leaves the leach dead straight rather than indented.
Regarding blading early this seems to me to be a problem/benefit - lets say 'function' - of square tops. I was finding it hard to use too much kicker in the medium winds at the nationals; more kicker produced more power rather than being a depowerer, I guess over say 20 knots we would start to ease it to blade again which would depower. (The Cherub is my first square top experience and there is definitaly more to be learnt here!).
Peter
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Dave Ching said the very same thing about kicker when he had a look at Hoppy's new sails on Atum.
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Hydes have a very discounted winter sails deal - Just checking that nobody misses it in case it is of interest. If I needed a new suit I would jump at it! The beauty of not having to buy sails via Laser or RS 's mark up, very refreshing!
Go to their latest release at
www.hydesails.com/default.asp?nid=%7b9FF4E964-BD22-476A-BF35-70EA7EE2FF6B%7d&page=News (http://www.hydesails.com/default.asp?nid=%7b9FF4E964-BD22-476A-BF35-70EA7EE2FF6B%7d&page=News) ,
and dont miss clicking on the 'winter deals' tab at the bottom (I nearly missed it!).
Toby has confirmed that we qualify for what they call the 'one design' deal giving 20 & 50% discount, the smaller 'racing sails' 20 & 30% discount is for yachts (and it is obviously fair & right that they should sub us!).
Basically in a nutshell - A suit of Hydes Cherub sails are currently;
Mainsail - £564
Jib - £223.25
Spinnaker - £493.50
Total - £1281
All prices are inclusive of VAT
but they have a winter offer which is gigantic; order before end Nov an you get 20% off the most expensive sail and 50% of the others, therefore a suit is;
Mainsail - £451
Jib - £112
Spinnaker - £247
Total - £810
on top of this they are offering a further 5% for payment before Chrimbo making it;
Mainsail - £428
Jib - £105
Spinnaker - £235
Total - £768 for a suit of 3
I think that is bloody cheap for a latest version high performance suit of sails as per what I was using at the Nationals!
Peter
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Thanks Peter. that's really interesting. I was thinking about the turbulence at the top batten and was thinking of a ellipse top corner on the square head on my sails, to try and manage what I guessed would be turbulence caused by the two surface edges meeting as well as the batten. It is a area that Interests me because of my kite design / business days.
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Hydes have a very discounted winter sails deal - Just checking that nobody misses it in case it is of interest. If I needed a new suit I would jump at it! The beauty of not having to buy sails via Laser or RS 's mark up, very refreshing!
Go to their latest release at
www.hydesails.com/default.asp?nid=%7b9FF4E964-BD22-476A-BF35-70EA7EE2FF6B%7d&page=News (http://www.hydesails.com/default.asp?nid=%7b9FF4E964-BD22-476A-BF35-70EA7EE2FF6B%7d&page=News) ,
and dont miss clicking on the 'winter deals' tab at the bottom (I nearly missed it!).
Toby has confirmed that we qualify for what they call the 'one design' deal giving 20 & 50% discount, the smaller 'racing sails' 20 & 30% discount is for yachts (and it is obviously fair & right that they should sub us!).
Basically in a nutshell - A suit of Hydes Cherub sails are currently;
Mainsail - £564
Jib - £223.25
Spinnaker - £493.50
Total - £1281
All prices are inclusive of VAT
but they have a winter offer which is gigantic; order before end Nov an you get 20% off the most expensive sail and 50% of the others, therefore a suit is;
Mainsail - £451
Jib - £112
Spinnaker - £247
Total - £810
on top of this they are offering a further 5% for payment before Chrimbo making it;
Mainsail - £428
Jib - £105
Spinnaker - £235
Total - £768 for a suit of 3
I think that is bloody cheap for a latest version high performance suit of sails as per what I was using at the Nationals!
Peter
And there was me thinking it was just me getting that deal!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Daryl,
Too different schools of thought there.
the other (my understanding) is - if drag exists, concentrate it in one place with a pointy (rather than curved) square top.
An interesting start line pic of this years I14 Nationals shows about 9 with square tops and 6 with round tops so quite a mix - but I understand (?) there are more squares at the front.
P
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I was thinking more like this...
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There is a lot of misunderstanding about square / rounded tops. The most important thing is that the sail is cut with a planform, twist and camber to achieve a particular spanwise loading. There is no unique solution to this. If the main top is bigger, then you can have more twist and / or a flatter section than if the main had a smaller top. The influence on drag of whether the top is squared off or rounded is minimal. This is why you can look at 14s, 18s etc and see sails of different planforms all of which perform well.
Clearly the Hydes perform well, and at those prices, they represent really good value. It will be important, though, to make sure that the mast and sail match in terms of luff round. Pete's mast is a lot stiffer at the top than say, the CTech, so a sail for the CTech would need more round higher up the luff.
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Pete, Ronin uses a Superspars' mast, correct?
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As mine is.
My thinking behind rounding the corner is to allow a minimal amount of movement in the drag concentration. As nothing is sailing is steady state. Obviously it is given that the sail is cut correctly for the mast etc...
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As we are in the market for sails at the moment. Are the hydes suitable for a CTech mast? would they make the luff curve to measure?
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Ros - yes, its a Superspars mast
Simon - you will have to speak to Toby at Hydes; [email protected] 01489 563426
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Honestly I got the couple C-Tech / Hyde and I'm not really happy with that.
The main is too flat probably because the mast is too soft.
I'm always lacking power.
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sounds like you need some powweeerrr sails like suicides new ones
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Hmmm, should be a laugh in lots of breeze trying to bear away or trying to tack!!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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After this weekend I think two rigs are the way forward. A tiny flat set for big breeze and a big, full, powerfull set for anything that isnt. Maybe go proper old school and go single wire and have a non mast head kite and no T-foil.
I need a new main so if anyone has a 91 or 97 main availble give me a shout.
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Ross ,
With your new mast rake issue you may want to chop a bit off the bottom to get the rake right. Slippery's step was on the floor where as Stanley's is higher up in the boat. Don't take too much off in a go is my advice.
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Honestly I got the couple C-Tech / Hyde and I'm not really happy with that.
I would find it very hard to go away from Fyfe sails with a C-tech Cherub spar. They produce exquisitely well matched mast/sail combinations.
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Dont forget alverbanks... we can custom make sails so they fit the mast/rig they're going on.
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Honestly I got the couple C-Tech / Hyde and I'm not really happy with that.
I would find it very hard to go away from Fyfe sails with a C-tech Cherub spar. They produce exquisitely well matched mast/sail combinations.
well not quite exquisite enough to win the nationals :D
And with what Hydes are doing at the moment it is hard to go anywhere else.
Has Kevan got a shape for a Kite yet, Stuart?
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Simon, did you speak to Hyde?
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Hi Ross , yes we did speak to Hyde, however we had already given someone else the work. And although it will cost us more. 1) We didn't feel right messing someone around. 2) We are confidant that we will get some nice sails. 3) We also get a set of cut down Redeyes into the bargain for when it's blowing it's tits off. (force 4 for Dean and myself)
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Hi Stu
Thanks for you call on Tuesday, I'm sorry it's taken a little longer than anticapted to get you the prices but here they are at last.
Retail prices are as follows:
Mainsail - £540.00
Jib - £220.00
Spinnaker - £460.00
All prices exclude VAT. Sail come with bags, numbers, battens etc as appropriate.
I am delighted to be able to offer you a 15% discount from these prices.
The main and jib designs will be based on our successful I14 flying shapes and then cutom fitted to your boat. The spinnaker design will be based on the Nationals winning sail used by Chris Lewns.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Best regards
Toby
North Sails One Design Int Ltd
3a Wingate Road, Gosport, Hants. PO12 4DR
D +44 (0)239 260 4276. F +44 (0)239 354 810
M +44 (0)7595 307729.
E [email protected]
www.northonedesign.com
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Counter to popular belief Hyde are offering sails. The option available is simply a GT60 straight re-print.
520 Main
210 jib
452.17 kite
+VAT - 10% if you can wait a bit for delivery - 5% pay before Christmas discount.
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+VAT - 10% if you can wait a bit for delivery - 5% pay before Christmas discount.
What.... 10% off if you wait about a year! ;D ;D ;D Have your kite turn up half way through the nationals like Phil? :D :D :D
Go to Grant Piggott.
BTW... not been sailing much as my boy has ( had? ) a girl friend which seems to have curtailed the sailing since August. It seems to have gone a bit quite on that front at the moment so I may be able to get him back in a boat soon! ::)
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Don't forget Nick. I'm confident a set of "Pratts" will be excellent.
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Pratts endorsed by Tinner ;D
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Sun headline of the week:
"Tinner Endorses Pratts"
Seriously Stu is on the record as having a sensible conversation with a sail maker. He managed to explain that;
"Some Cherubs choose to set their rigs to suit their crew and sailing style, hence there are some significant diffrences. Some go for all out power on a stiff stick - others go for a closely matched springy mast/sail and the fleet has everything in between.
As the class is not afraid to innovate and experiment, it is not a suprise that an owner asks for a bit more than their standard replica, as a Merlin owner might""
This may have lost a bit in translaion, but I agree we have some massively divergent rig styles in the fleet (Ronin/Usagi to Aunti) . I thought this a good point to say I have just ordered a replica sail, but before doing so have spent a fair bit of time making sure my new mast is right for it to go on.
(NB Merlin could be several other classes. Yes I like Merlins too).
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Or
Sun Headline: 'Set of Pratts win Cherub inlands.'
A bit harsh if you ask me.
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It's a bit stuck in 2011 for me...
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We've allready got a set of prats in our boat!
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:P
thanks