UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: phil_kirk on May 21, 2008, 02:25:12 PM
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My main suggestion was not to compare a jigless or minimal jig design with using a current mould. Using a mould will be the best option. the reasoning behind the original post could suggest the logistics and cost of locating a mould, vac pump and the space required to conduct the operation may not suit all builders. The idea was for a one off build to remove the time taken to build complex jigs and perhaps as phil A suggests create a flat pack of foam pannels that could be put together by a moderately experienced amature builder.
At one extreme this could be a set of templates used to develop the foam pannels and a few frames that help to jig the pannels together.
The idea was also thinking about the developement of the class. The class is growing but growth is limited by the number of people who can afford a profesional build or who think they are competant enough to self build. If there was an easier level to enter the class with a new boat and that new boat was competitive, there would be a greater potential for expansion. this concept would require the kits and some instruction to develop the techniques of each owner/builder (perhaps a long sticky weekend).
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OK I split out a new topic too. This one is to discuss ideas to stimulate home building of compettitive Cherubs.
When I built Aqua (with no previous boat building experiance) I was a long way from everyone else and I thought the cost of building or transporting a mold would be a problem. I got Andy P at Bloodeaxe to build me a hull shell and then finished it myself. The Shell was not too expensave and knowing that a large part of the boat was expertly built was a confidence boost. Andy also gave me instructions and support during the build.
I think that purchasing a shell is a good starting point for a home build boat, what are other peoples thaughts.
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How much is just a hull shell? It's one of my many options...
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Between £1000 > £1500. Depends how good you are at negotiation :D ( and what you are making it from ) or how hard up your builder is at the time :D
Getting a shell is a good option. But don't under estimate how much time finishing it WILL take.
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I think that purchasing a shell is a good starting point for a home build boat, what are other peoples thoughts.
Agree completely. Eveything else is really flat panel stuff and straightforward. I've never been able to raise the enthusiasm and confidence for a complete boat, but a shell is straightforward enough. I did Halo like that (nearly twice!) and have just done a Canoe.
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so insert stupid question...
is the shell literally that a sort of outer skin that needs all the insides (foam, bulkheads, supports etc) putting in it? i'm imagining it in the same way as the plastic that an easter egg comes in, or is there a bit more too it?
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A white book about "Building a cherub" would be nice with :
- exemples,
- Building steps,
- Timeframe,
- advices,
- materials,
- Common mistakes
it can be a compilation of what we can find on the website
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A shell is typically the hull as taken from the jig so inner skin foam and outer skin
For the white book, we have most of what is required on the website, the main things lacking are material lists costs time scales and to a certain extent mistakes.
The place to start would probably be to create an introduction/index page in sections linking to the existing pages with comments on what needs to be added to the articles and also with links to yet to be created pages.
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A shell is typically the hull as taken from the jig so inner skin foam and outer skin
so what actually needs adding to finish off the build? is this things like false floor, space frame, supports etc or are these or elements of these included?
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A shell is typically the hull as taken from the jig so inner skin foam and outer skin
so what actually needs adding to finish off the build? is this things like false floor, space frame, supports etc or are these or elements of these included?
Basically you need to put all those things onto a bare shell which would look something like:
(http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/lib/exe/fetch.php/boats/2687-20050808a.jpg?cache=cache&w=445&h=333)
You could get whoever built the shell for you to do as much or as little as you wanted.
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A shell is typically the hull as taken from the jig so inner skin foam and outer skin
so what actually needs adding to finish off the build? is this things like false floor, space frame, supports etc or are these or elements of these included?
Bulkheads, frames, deck, mast step, proder, chute, gantry, jib track supports, racks, shroud and forestay plates, rudder cassettes, centerboard case, ... to say the less :D
Fairing, fairing again, fairing again again ... primer, painting
I just give you an idea of what was NBS planning :
01/11/2006 : starting from a moulf+materials
06/11/2006 : first part of the hull finished (inner skin, foam, outer skin)
01/12/2006 : hull finished
Note if I had a mould built for racks, the hull would have been finished on the 6th november
01/01/2007 : hull + bulheads + cut to appropriate size
01/02/2007 : deck glued + racks extensions
15/02/2007 : gantry on + racks + rudder
01/03/2007 : rudder cassettes + first hull fairing
15/03/2007 : fairing (working close to 2/3 hours/day + WE) + primer finished
17/03/2007 : painting finished
20/03/2007 : first mast try + sails
31/03/2007 : fittings finished (2 complete days)
01/04/2007 : first time on the water
01/01/2010 : boat about to be optimised ;-)
I worked 2 evening / weeks + about 24 h / WE always alone.
The hull by itself was 1/10th of the total amount of time.
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Maybe we need to re-think the boat building articles on the website. Perhaps a page titled "Thinking of building?". Then in a similar way to the T-foil system page, have different options but you can click on that method of building to read more a more in depth description (with pictures) showing the basic building process, costs and time involved, pros/cons and examples of previous boats built.
At the moment, if someone wonders onto the site and thinks,
"All this talk about carbon, weave, special foam sounds very complicated." will just write the idea off in there head.
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I have been on a campaign of demystification about boat building since I can remember. But at some level building a boat is complicated, not least in the amount of decisions you have make in a huge range of areas, and then bring them all together. But in principle building in foam sandwich is simple. Have a look the videos on the technical pages. (we need more video of hull builds / foam lay-up)
For me, and it is something I have talked about along time ago. I would like to see a DUMMIES GUIDE ( a list of technical words / actions with simple descriptions ) somewhere on the web-site, somewhere prominent actually. :-)
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Like this http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/encyclopedia?s=encyclopedia (http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/encyclopedia?s=encyclopedia) ;D
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I spent some considerable time with some colleagues building that encyclopedia as a method of work avoidance at uni (now look where i ended up, should have done more work!) It's a healthy mix of useful info and banter!
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Like this http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/encyclopedia?s=encyclopedia (http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/encyclopedia?s=encyclopedia) ;D
Errr... yes, but maybe a little more serious. And with the odd image to help.
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I have made a page to work as a bare bones guide and link to relevant articles that we already have.
in the members only section till we get some flesh on it.
http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/members/buildguide (http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/members/buildguide)
We can also use it to identify areas that need more detail please add bits and links both to existing articles and to ones that you think need writing.
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I can add some images if you want Daryl... but most of them will only be relevant to 'code brown' or 'ass of fire' !! :o
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A shell is typically the hull as taken from the jig so inner skin foam and outer skin
so what actually needs adding to finish off the build? is this things like false floor, space frame, supports etc or are these or elements of these included?
Basically you need to put all those things onto a bare shell which would look something like:
(http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/lib/exe/fetch.php/boats/2687-20050808a.jpg?cache=cache&w=445&h=333)
You could get whoever built the shell for you to do as much or as little as you wanted.
I recognise that from somewhere...looks fast, that one!
If a new guide is being put together then I can take a load of pictures of this build. We spent a good few hours on Tuesday just working out where the transom is going to be! The bow is very bluff at the moment so what in that picture is the current bow will actaully be a good 2" or so further back, and we will be making something a little sharper up front.
Rumour control...We drew out the transom piece last week and realised it did not fit...it had far too much curvature. Much head scratching ensued, had the shell sagged over time and this was going to be a new, flatter Slug? :o
Er, no. With all the design iterations of the original Slug back in 1997, they'd got a bit muddled on Simon's PC, so all of those CAD drawings (which we took the measurements off) are actually not a Slug, they are of a rounder Slug that never got built.
So we put the laptop and all it's offset dimensoins away, and proceeded to chop the back of the boat off and draw round it for the transom...far easier! ;D
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some pictures of your build would be great, I am particulaly interested in hard points for fittings and structural things done to support wings, gantry's etc.
One thing Ross or anyone with some free time is to search the galleries for pictures to add to some of the existing articles and add comments to the new one in the members area showing which of the existing articles need some expantion or improvement.
I have found a couple of bits in old mag's that I have written that could be added to the website, including a breif guide to building a boat.