UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: roland_trim on December 13, 2012, 10:11:14 AM
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Exciting times. We have a cherub being made by a set of proffesional experts (Composite Craft), another by a set of industy legends (Clive Everest and Roger Angel). About time to add a boat built by "a home bodger in a garage" to the mix.
Yesterday marked the first physical point of H&I's new Ellway 6 build. The "Skeleton Jigsaw" of an E6 was collected from "weld and metal craft (southampton) ltd". Many thanks to Clive for introducing us to the business next door. They very kindly water cut the pieces from the CAD shown below. Each of the ribs are made from a selection of 9 and 2.5mm MDF. We'll fill in-between the ribs with Polystyrene, sand back to the ribs and then coat the lot with a layer of glass to make a plug (male moulding to shape the hull around).
The boat will look similar to EVO, but the shear line is flaired out at the mast stump to accomodate/end plate a longer jib track. As we are not looking to prove a way to build 100's of these, the racks will be a bit more subtle and shapely. That said, the structure will be simialar to the one that is sat 15m from my desk ATM (and has held the same rig tension for the past 3 weeks).
Don't worry, the paint scheme will not be sky blue and the name on lauch will not be EVO2.
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Having 3 boats in build over a winter is excellent for the class, and using 3 different build methods.
There is much talk of boats ready for the Dinghy Show on 2-3 March 2012, do you think this one may be ready in that time and can be put in the mix ?
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Ideally I want to be sailing this at the event in feb ::)
I'm flattered to be considered "in the mix", but not hopeful I can get anywhere near the others. However, for the first time the class will be able to make the choice of stand boat after seeing the boats on the water in Feb! Thinking about it - 2 boats would make a really cool arch, 3 a Cherub T-Pee.
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At this time we only have a stand big enough to accommodate one boat, I have made attempts to increase this but have so far been unsuccessful.
So at the moment I am only working out which boats will/may be ready so that we have a choice - how we make that choice is a decision for nearer the time depending on everyones progress, the message the class wants to give, and how the boat portrays that message. As far as I am concerned the greater the choice the better !
In the meantime I urge all people building to take lots of photo's, because those boats we cant take can at least be featured on the wall, showing the different ways people can get into the class.
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Aaaah! It's even got heart-shaped sections! :) ( the first one anyway )
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Foam for plug has arrived. So just need the carpet down in our bedroom and to assemble the bed before we can make a start putting it all together.
Ordered far too much foam. Don't think the post room likes me any more.
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Is it on top of the car so it wont float away?
I think you have also solved the problem of how to make a car float. Don't tell Top Gear though!
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I can only see one slight problem with that theory Phil. Technically I don't think the car would be floating, although the foam may.
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I have been looking at the ribs and am wondering if the hull is wider than the previous EVO. So my questions are... how different is it to EVO ? And if so, does that mean it is a new modified 6 hull shape (AKA Roland) or is it basically the same. Paul's new one is a 7, so it will be really interesting seeing them. I cant wait!!!
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True Simon!
but fit it with a snorkel and a propeller and it would be fine.
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how different is it to EVO ? And if so, does that mean it is a new modified 6 hull shape (AKA Roland) or is it basically the same.
Evo2 is certainly an E6, but will very similar to EVO. We will not be completely 2 parting the structure - but it use the same layup and strucutrual form.
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Snow forecast in Bristol for Thursday. Expecting a complete white-out in the garage :-)
Took some excellent phootos of all the ribs going together, then found the card in the camera was corrupt. Sorry you'll have to believe me that the ribs looked excellent as a skeleton. Need to glue the nose slabs in place (spot the frame I've lost the foam for in transit).
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Anyone out there got an old double/king size duvet cover or two I could have? PM me and I'll send an address and pay postage.
Need to make some easily movable insualtion bags and was thinking that a duvet cover stuffed with Cozi Wrap would make a very good cover for the electric heat blanket. My skin comes out in a rash on contact to the glass in the insulation - too much exposure to it last year insulating extension, garage and roof.
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Hi Roland,
Gill thinks she may have some...I'll get her to root them out today and text you later
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two old double duvet covers (hopefully) in post tomorrow
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Many thanks. They'll have a long after life in the garage.
Will need to bake each layer as we go to get this one ready for the 2013 season, so the combination of electric blanket and uber insulation will gain me a few days setting time.
Note for other "home" builders or fellow garage bodgers:
There is a big difference between set and cure. Many of the resins we use will become very solid in minutes at room temperature, but only achieve full strength after a few hours at 40-60 degrees or hotter. Some resin suppliers suppliment advice with "or achieve cure by sitting in the sun in the boat park!" Read or download the instrucutions for your resins and bake carefully where required.
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Thanks Nigel, saves me having to brave the shops for replacements!
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Some recent photos. First after hacking the foam and the other after a fair and a few layers of glass.
Next - turn it over and attack the rolls and the deck.
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I don't envy the task of sanding at all! Keep up the good work!
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40 grit snadpaper and a 1m long board appear to make mincemeat of the foam (or dust) . Glass on the rolls, just need ot join it up tomorrow and then it is bodyfiller and another sand/paint. This is overkill, especially when compared to Clive's.
However, it is the price of having our heart's set on a particular boat.
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Dear Nigel and Gill (AKA Mr&Mrs Torchy),
Many thanks for my Christmas present. I donned an orange overall, gloves and mask this evening an stuffed them full of insulation and I've almost finished sewing them fully closed. These are a revelation as I am very allergic to rockwool.
Hayley is seriously impressed with the triangular duvet cover. Did this come from a boat?
Best wishes,
Hayley and Roland
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We remembered afterwards that one had been converted to be used inside twin mummy sleeping bags zipped together...we DO NOT have a triangular bed (more's the pity?) :)
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Perfect for the bow section...of course I knew that and planned it all along (not)
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Also good for the long night shift in the garage or when H just locks you out of the house. Getting colder this weekend!
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Good point Phil, although last time he fell asleep in the garage he stuck his head to the floor.
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Good point Phil, although last time he fell asleep in the garage he stuck his head to the floor.
Priceless!!!! At least he'll be comfortable until the fire brigade arrive next time
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I'm glad that I managed to tease that out of you for everyone to share and chuckle at. i didn't relalise that he stuck his head to the floor though. That's brilliant!
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Slow progress (I have a cold), but the plug is finally painted. Tonight is waxing and the first bits of carbon will go on.
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Another view form the front. It looks a bit "big and blunt", but there is 40mm of foam to go on the front and the taper should make the actual boat much pointier. We are using the sarcofogus technique - so will encase the plug totally with Carbon and foam and then cut it off.
Wiz points out that this is how he made his Tri - except he cut the plug out from the inside.
EVO2, is significantly wider at the deck up front than EVO, but the differenence in shape is 150mm down from the shear line. So we are hoping she sails like Evo (or better still Marmite). The strucutural path will be as the Arup Skiff, but it is not an integral moulding.
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Well done.
I like the idea of Wiz mining foam out of his tri. :D
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First layer of carbon down. Uber thin plastic vac bag "gripped" to the waxed surface where the carbon was not.
We had a sealed sucking bag with that lovely note change and hardness associated with a good job after about 1m of parcel tape.
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Hi Roland,
It looks great already.
Could you not just rig the plug and go sailing?
Clive
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hi there R - looking really amazing. Brill! ..just thinking out the box.. had you thought of shaping in the kite hoop actually in the sam moulding, and even a Darth Vader (AKA Paul) support?
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A good/bad weekend. Session 1 took next to no time and the first zero minute vac bag was sadly an omen of very bad things to come.
Yesterday
Whole inner layer of cabon is now down, but the wax/PVA release was a big mistake. With wax alone I could vac against bits of laminate with both Evo and EJ. Sadly the PVA/Wax combo releases so very easily that removing the peel ply pulls it off the plug. There is now way to get the bag down over any large area. So to bag the skin we had to encase the whole mould. Good news - mould is seriously stiff and strong and happlily took the extra pressure.
Today
After a day of bending foam and getting it all to sit down nicely, Tim U. and I 0went in for tea. Sadly the garage is now full of green smoke and smells of burnt electrics. Andrew's loaned mega pump is the culprit, left it smoking gently in the corner -will inspect tomorrow.
Mummied up the remains of Tim's work in with a roll of peel ply and will have to sort out the damage tomorrow PM. At least with a male mould I can chip off the bad bits and continue, this will add a few grams to the hull, a few hours to the project and a few pounds in the swear jar.
Still enjoying it though :-)
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had you thought of shaping in the kite hoop actually in the sam moulding.
I'm big fan of metal hoops - so that will be glued in after.
even a Darth Vader (AKA Paul) support?
As the rack tubes are to be integral with the bulkheads there is not as much need for the helmet as a mounting plate. Evo has not suffered from pole/bag space and is narrower at that point than Evo2 will be, so the mast wil sit on the deck again.
A good question though Ade, I'm really looking forward to seeing how the E7 comes together around DarthVader. Some new bits comming from a new builder will give us all more to think about/improve for future boats. For now though I've not seen enough yet to understand the E7's structure path.
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So we tried to rescue the vac pump with some lash up technology. Wafer thin vac bags work a treat for carbon, but need a pump that draws more air to pull foam (this allow repairs to the inevitable of hissing holes). Yesterday I sorted a thicker plastic and vacced the foam into the deck using the asthmatic cricket Vac pump and tacki tape.
Sadly today the lash up job failed my QA test. Too many indications of air voids under the foam. So with a scraper and mallet all of the curved foam is now off the boat. Tonight will sand it back and start again. About 3 days programme, £40 of materials and 200-500g of useless additional boat weight. Howeever, looking at the pictures attached you can see where the foam was not attached so was a good call - the extra work vs worry factor when bouncing downhill makes this worth it.
Frustrating, but still enjoyable. Can't wait to hoist and go on this one, jealous of Clive and Paul (whose boats are looking awesome).
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Deck done and off mold.
The nose looks alot better following a visit from Mr Croote.
We don't refer to him as a"mater craftsman" for nothing. In about 30 minutes he had made it look square and fixed why I keep making all the corners droopy.
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Slow progress - I have a cold and it is cold in the garage.
Still the boat is off the plug. The plug is out of the garage.
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Good progress!
I assume that the outer layer of carbon has been left off the topsides to be added over the hull deck join.
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I assume that the outer layer of carbon has been left off the topsides to be added over the hull deck join.
Spot on, it will also allow me to "tweak" the shape at the bow to ensure blend into the roll on the top deck is consistent. The foam was heat formed* and appears to be holding it's shape nicely. We will bond a lip the on the inside for joining, this will ensure a fit even if it tries to creep out a bit in the next few days and gives some limited fiber interaction on the inside skin.
*This sounds too technical. The foam was attacked with an electric paint stripper. When hot you can bend it approximately to shape. Too hot and it starts to burn.
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Progress over the past few weeks has been slow, but we are starting to get there. Another session has seen "Picasso" Croote renamed "Michelangelo" Croote.
Note 1: care foam to shape square on plan and in elevation. Take hours doing this it really is key. The "wing" shape takes seconds to then carve from the foam by taking out the corners.
Note 2: The angle grinder with the sander head on is not to be used without care. For those keen to play with boats we recomend trying this tool on something that you don't mind gouging holes in before a carbon foam object that it will carve through with the tiniest slip (Mr C. did not mark the carbon).
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Looks more like Henry Moore to me :)
http://www.henry-moore.org/hmf/shop/henry-moore-special-selection/celebrating-moore-softback (http://www.henry-moore.org/hmf/shop/henry-moore-special-selection/celebrating-moore-softback)
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Spoiler on, racks on, tacker support on, shroud points in. It almost looks like a boat now.
Work has now moved to WSM for filling and fairing (Many many thanks to Paul Croote for the loan of the booth with an extraction wall).
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After a weekend of sanding...
Not much danger of running out of sandpaper now. We can just use my hands.
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Last night was your average kind of evening:
Roland constructs a swing for me to sit on underneath the up-turned boat while he pours hot soapy water over my head from the other side.
The joys of getting a fully tapered centreboard wedged in the slot with its plastic covering. Releasing it was a very slow process, but at least that meant I didn't unexpectedly land on my bum.
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You crazy kids! I glanced through the post quickly and had to go back and re-read it more thoroughly as the only words I picked up on the first pass were "soapy water, tapered centre board, wedged and bum". I thought this is a family site, what is this FILTH?!
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50 shades of boat building.
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You're right it is a family site Tim - that's why I said "bum" ;)
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Innuendo Bingo at the nationals anyone?
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Everything was all white for a while in Weston
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But a few minutes after Paul turned up we were all seeing red...
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So hopefully not much more sanding required now. Had forgotten how going through the grades has the same effect on your hands. Gone from 60 grit rough, scratched and painful all the way to silky smooth. No fingerprints left though, so the ideal time to make that career change to cat burglar ...
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"like"
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Grip paint sprayed on deck tonight. Tomorrow she's coming home and the fun really starts.
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In the sun
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Looking good guys, will she be ready for Weston?
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Nope. We're having a day off! Hoping to launch her the following weekend.
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Very nice, a lot of hard work in there !
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I was trying to work out where I'd seen that vivid shade of red before. Is it the lovely Special K lady's dress? Looks really, really good.
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Thanks Neil. Special K would be quite appropriate - she does have what have been affectionately termed "lady humps". In fact I have to admit that I have curve envy ;D
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Thanks Neil. We had put the name to rest, but Paul's paint job is now making us think twice about coating the hull with shiny gold vinyl film.
So you've started yet another name debate in the Trim household.
Reasons for calling her Special K:
- As part of a balanced diet - a genuine slimming aid
- May contain nuts
- Has lady humps
But also to consider:
- Not as light as we'd like her to be
- Promises great things we almost certainly cannot deliver
- Is probably not as good for you as it looks
- May generate allergic reaction (see image)
- Maybe she's more like the Lidl version. Cheap so far, but there's still the mystery aisle to get past.
In any event, she's very special to us and we can't wait to sail her.[/list]
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Was hoping not mention that link.
Last train to Mashville girl, you got on board, Packed up your medicines, left without a word, Now you're strung out in Suburbia, waiting for that call, You just chill out by yourself behind your front door.You lost the plot again, where you are now ain't clear, It's a misty morning memory, the road that took you here, The Special K keeps the chills away with your needle and your spoon, Staring at the wall, sharin' your score with no one
And U don't dans to Tekno anymoreI don't see you under the strobe light on the dance floorIt's been awhile since I saw your ultraviolet smileAnd U don't dans to Tekno anymoreMore
lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/a/a3_alabama_3/ (http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/a/a3_alabama_3/)
[\i]
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Thats enough of that - Pres.
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Have to admit to being more than a little bit excited...
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Lady Virginia of Keynsham (or Poppy to her friends) finally made contact with the water.
Many thanks to Picasso Croote, Andy W., Dave C. and Laura for their immense help in getting this one built.
It was also lovely to share the water today with Shiny (Paul and Liza), Marmite (Ed and Paul), Born Slippy (Laura and Andy). Shame there was no more than marginal twinning conditions to play in (and that was a 5 minute highlight). Hayley says the foredeck on this one is nice and grippy.
Thanks Ed for the photos - more to land on the boat page shortly.
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Some more Ed H images from today
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It was a jolly good day for a maiden voyage, shame about the wind!
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Boat looks great! Well done R&H and everyone involved! Loving the Chew Fleet. If we get our arses in gear we could have that down at Netters!
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It's a red one! very curvy and looks really good.
There was a bit more wind on Saturday in the middle of the sevrn Eastury.
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Well that went quite well! I think we might quite like this boat. Looking forward to lots of sailing now instead of building. Crew is very rusty in 05 rules mode. Just need work and weddings etc not to keep getting in the way.
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Lady Virginia of Keynsham...love it!
If I ever build a Cherub, being a Liverpool lad I'm thinking of 'Errant of Mersey' (can't decide if it's errant as in knights errant or errant as in '...it wasn't me your honour...')
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A boat to be proud of ! Well done the Trims
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Damn that looks good.
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Looks brilliant. I love that redder than red red. Superb.
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Wow she looks fab!