UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Calendar Events => Topic started by: paul_croote on November 15, 2012, 03:49:52 PM
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We are planning to hold the sticky weekend on the 26th and 27th of January 2013, For anyone who hasn’t attended before, it's a great opportunity to gain the knowledge and skills required for repairing and building boats, foils and spars etc. . Anyone planning on bringing projects / boats please post details so I can prepare.
Saturday evening social /meal will be in the local curry house
Accommodation, if you are feeling brave and have a good sleeping bag you are welcome to stay in the workshop or the local Travelodge is only about a mile away. There are also loads of local B&B's
The workshop address is - Unit B1, Oldmixon Crescent, Weston-s-Mare, North Somerset. BS24 9AY.
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Awesome! Thanks Paul. I look forward to attending :D
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We will be there with Eleanor to fit the new kite hoop.
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provisionally please can i come and bring Sweet Dreamzzz to fit kite hoop and pole sliding guide near the mast.
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For people wanting to save on costs there is also some floor/bed spaces at ours.
It is a 35 minute drive away.
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Accommodation, if you are feeling brave and have a good sleeping bag you are welcome to stay in the workshop or the local Travelodge is only about a mile away. There are also loads of local B&B's
...you mean sleep inside! Where's the fun in that? :)
Out of respect for Sam's wishes I think we'll bag floor space at the Trims.
Sam's school are happy for him to do a T-foil conversion on Loco's spare rudder if Ade signs it off as Sam's work.
We would need to rout some med/high density foam, then begin laminating the carbon...or at least be clear how to complete it at home/school.
I can video Sam doing it if school need some more evidence.
Congrats for the Inlands and thank you for offering these weekends.
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I'll get the bacon in ;D
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We're up for it too. Really looking forward to it.
Projects as yet undecided, as it depends on what I get done over Christmas. Is there any access to any spar mandrels that weekend?
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If im not too snowed under with jan exams, I would like to bring cheese down so we can all work out whos small enough to fix the crack under the foredeck (eddie?, dean/simon?, hayley?)
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Can give you and Cheese a lift John as I don't think we'll take Loco
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Nigel if you need some foam prior to the weekend so you & Sam can make a start on the foil sections, let me know and I'll see if I can bring what you need to Carsington. That should then allow you to laminate with carbon and fix in place over the sticky weekend.
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Thanks Tom but we haven't got routing facilities. I think it's rout and fair it on the Saturday and first layer of carbon Sunday.
Happy to buy foam off you, bring it to the sticky(?)
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Yes, no problem
provisionally please can i come and bring Sweet Dreamzzz to fit kite hoop and pole sliding guide near the mast.
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Could I possibly pre book the boom mandrel?! I've got a few projects potentially lined up, but that is the one which would be most beneficial of external help!
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Boom Mandrel. I think yes - it is in my garage atm.
John H. is the other possible for this.
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You can always make two booms on the weekend if one person doesn't mind going home with a curing boom on the mandrel. i would recommend wrapping it in lots of cling film so it doesn't stick to the car.
I have an issue that we planned Alex's NCT group 1 year birthday on the Saturday afternoon. So i may not be able to make it.
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Paaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrtttttttttttyyyyyyyyyyyyy ...... can we all come? will there be yummy mummys ? ;D
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(This post was done by Sam before his DT teacher left suddenly! He's probably dropping DT but we will continue to learn to make foils. We're linking up with Stom to make a foam core and we want to learn to laminate and vacuum bag at the weekend. Stom has bought a vacuum pump, so the Midlands is set to go into foil production.)
Paul C
Dear paul, Sam here. I am hoping to make a t-foil for my DT-GCSE at the sticky weekend and am thinking of using a CNC cutter to make the foam core. I was wondering: Will there be a CNC cutter at the weekend and if so, will i need to bring the foam ourselves (my dads happy to get the foam if thats easier). Also i have never used a CNC cutter and i need to know how to use it, will i need to bring in a pre made design, if so will i need a particular program?
Sam.
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Yummy mummys and dads will be present and I think you are older than 1 so not you can't come. Sorry!
The fun will be watching each kid nick the other's toys and their reactions. An adventure crawling course may be set up but Alex could be walking by then.
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Hi Sam, sorry but I don't have cnc, there are other methods we can use involving a plotter, making templates and using a router.
(This post was done by Sam before his DT teacher left suddenly! He's probably dropping DT but we will continue to learn to make foils. We're linking up with Stom to make a foam core and we want to learn to laminate and vacuum bag at the weekend. Stom has bought a vacuum pump, so the Midlands is set to go into foil production.)
Paul C
Dear paul, Sam here. I am hoping to make a t-foil for my DT-GCSE at the sticky weekend and am thinking of using a CNC cutter to make the foam core. I was wondering: Will there be a CNC cutter at the weekend and if so, will i need to bring the foam ourselves (my dads happy to get the foam if thats easier). Also i have never used a CNC cutter and i need to know how to use it, will i need to bring in a pre made design, if so will i need a particular program?
Sam.
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Sounds awesome, I'll try and be there (like John, depends on exams etc.) If so, happy on shop floor.
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Hi guys,
Just planning for the weekend...
I need enough hd foam and carbon for at least 2 t-foils and depending on if we find Loco's t-foil (don't ask...well OK, we think Sam left it in the DT workshop at school but it's not there now) we might be making an entire new rudder and t-foil >:(
Does anybody have enough excess foam/carbon they are trying to offload (for the going rate) or should I get some of my own?...if so, can you recommend a supplier?
Resin is probably in good supply as people like Roland buy in bulk(?)
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How much carbon is required for sticking on the kite hoop? I ask as we have a limited amount of uni's in short lengths and plenty of weave. We have plenty of resin so will happily swap some for any extra carbon needed. Otherwise we can swap for the local currency of beer tokens.
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I reckon there'll be plenty of sufficiently long uni in our off-cuts box which you're welcome to. (I never turn down a beer though, carbon or no...)
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Loco's T-foil has turned up at the school...Phew!!!
Sam and I will be mostly watching and learning and happy to make T-section (a first attempt at a foil) with Tom (stom) when he returns from Japan. See what happens on the weekend anyway.
We plan to make a new set of foils sometime later in the year. I have foil envy at the moment - everybody else's daggerboard was bigger at the nationals :(
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We plan to make a new set of foils sometime later in the year. I have foil envy at the moment - everybody else's daggerboard was bigger at the nationals :(
It's not all about size Nigel... Apparently profile and aspect ratio and other technical sounding terms matter too.
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...and they do say it's how you use it too...I feel a bit better, thank you
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True. What you do with it is the most important thing. We've found it helps if it's pointing vertically downwards through the boat into the water. Pointing upwards or horizontal definitely not so fast.
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Perhaps that's where we went wrong at the nationals...it was pointing vertically upwards most of the time.
From what I hear the new boats being built are all having daggerboard enhancements. Loco is having to wait until later in the season for the operation.
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Daggerboard enhancements...as in horizontal foil elements?? Or just plain longer?
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longer and higher aspect, unless someone is going for a horizon job on the rest of us by building a foiler!
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Generally shorter cords similar length new sections.
The argument for longer foils is in simple terms more grip on the water therfore more power from the boat = more speed. Against this is more wetted area = more drag and a greater heeling moment due to the CLR being lower down.
Surface area of the foil creates drag and hence contributes to limiting the boats top speed limit.
So the new foils are going high aspect by reducing cord. This also means the foil thickness is reduced. There is a danger that in low speed manoeuvres that the skinnier foils may loose grip on the water. If so there is a balance speed and control (skill level).
As foils get skinnier the section shape and planform will become more important. As you probably know traditional dinghies with mostly flat foils have sufficient area that section shape is less important for control.
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Sorry Neil...there has been a bit of double entendre going on ;)
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Kirky...
Previously you mentioned that you might have to re-set the angle of your foil because of too much lift ie still +ve even when level. You also mentioned that the tips were bending. This sounds like a foil developing a lot of lift.
What's the section?
Might the solution to cut the middle section out of the foil to make it smaller and reduce the drag? If it really is developing lots of lift that's a net gain...
Any thoughts?
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The foil was made over 80 gm^2 foam wit a layer of glass roughly at the horizontal neutral axis. This was not of course for strength but to make it easier to handle the foam whilst routing. The foil is higher aspect shorter cord of 100mm and longer 1m and thinner than my previous foil but used the same three layers of uni either side and a layer of weave.
The bending is probably due to the change in shape not being compensated by the change in laminate. I also don't know if the previous foil bent or not. Does anyone else's?
The new foil included more camber than my first so much so that on the first sail it felt quite draggy and sensitive to angle of attack. I filled in some of the concavity on the lower surface reducing the lift but the foil felt less draggy. The added camber means the foil needs to angled more neutral to generate zero lift or a downforce to point the bow up in waves. I noticed that the pro built foils have the t foil angled downwards such that the rudder has to be angled forward to generate lift.
I'm not sure when I will get round to this re-angling exercise. It's fine in flat water and light winds but less so in waves.
It was interesting to compare the effect of the older more conservative foil and the new one. Perhaps I would have completed more races at the nationals with the older rudder which had a larger vertical foil.
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Thanks Phil, didn't realise that angling down was common. Does anybody have any comments on the angle that professional foil builders set the T at? Loco's is level.
Can I make a request that people bring foils to the sticky so comparisons can be made?
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Angling the T foil down means that the rudder vertical has to be raked forward to give the correct AOA on the T.
This reduces the chances of air being sucked down the rudder as it would have to travel upstream.
Look at a PIC of a foiling Moth.
From my experience with SK I am trying to set up the new boat so that with the rocker line of the boat flat (stem and stern level) the T foil can be set over a range of 2 degrees pitched down relative to the zero lift line to 4 degrees pitched up.
When going upwind the Bow will be pitched up another 3 degrees giving a total of 7 degrees of lift. Above this the induced drag is likely to become too high.
On the foils attached to the Demon rudders the zero lift angle would appear to be when the foil is pitched down by 2 degrees due to the camber of the foil.
If you have crafted you own foil section and want to try and work out the zero lift angle the best free program is Java foil http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/javafoil.htm (http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/javafoil.htm)
Clive
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Loco's foil was re angled twice by cutting through the rudder section. This was done as the original shape/angle was far to positive causing a lot of nosedives.
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Thanks guys
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Pocket Rocket's last two foils have been angled down. It also brings the foil more under the boat reducing the nose down leaver arm from the foil.
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Just a reminder that you're all very welcome to stay chez Trim on Saturday if you'd prefer not to brave the workshop. You're also welcome to stay on the Friday night if it makes the Saturday morning a bit more civilised. There'll be food on Friday evening if you want it.
A vague idea of numbers would be handy but not essential; there's plenty of room for last minute extras as long as you bring your own bed.
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Hi
I'm planning on coming to the sticky so I can learn about how to repair bits and bobs.
I know Paul and Roland have talked about building a new t-foil, maybe I will use that as a practice project at a later date.
For now, i'm just dreaming of new ideas but not doing anything about it due to lack of skills and can't really complain about Subtle
Anyone willing to let me have a look at their projects/learn/add an extra hand that would be much appreciated.
Tom
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Tom, you are more than welcome to come along, watch, join in, lend a hand (always useful), come for curry etc. Especially as the exams will be over (not that I mean to sound like your dad or anything :) )
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Hi Hayley,
Sam and Nigel at Chez Trim please but not that triangular duvet if that's OK...
...seriously (so unlike me), we are bringing sleeping bags and camping mats
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Roland talked about building a new t-foil, maybe I will use that as a practice project at a later date.
The weekend always works with no real format. People can just arrive or bring bits they would like to do. Spare hands will always find something to do.
I am very likely to be making a T- foil over the weekend and maybe also some parts of the rack supports. Please be gentlle with me over the weekend, I will be desperate to be working on the Evo2. On the bright side, the new boat will need a new foil .
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Anyone coming to the weekend who is likely to see or lives fairly near Andy Whapshott (This Way Up)?
I have a Cherub Hoodie for him.
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Andy is coming to the weekend but if he doesnt im going to plymouth two weekends after to sail with him
Anyone coming to the weekend who is likely to see or lives fairly near Andy Whapshott (This Way Up)?
I have a Cherub Hoodie for him.
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Excellent Tom, I'll PM him to confirm
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I guess the weather maybe a big part of the decision making for us Midlanders attending. Joe and I are still up for it at the moment. What is the weather like from bristol to Weston-s-m side. and whats the forecast??? Any advise or decisions, about the weekend, from the South Westerners gratefully received. Intending sat morning arrival and bringing bedding as well.
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So far not too bad weatherwise. I think it's worse to the East of Bristol at the moment - reports of heavy snow in Bath and it is due to snow here in the next hour or so. I'm heading towards Southampton imminently (assuming trains are working) so can offer a full report between Bristol and there shortly. Looks like there won't be a great deal more snow after today and it's due to warm up considerably for Saturday. Hopefully it won't be too bad, but best keep it under review.
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We're still up for it but watching reports, thanks Hayley
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Seems to be a lot of white stuff falling from the sky east of bath.
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Not only do we have an igloo in our garden but we had (home made, gluten free) orange drizzle cake, (home made) mango sorbet and snow sorbet (locally sourced ie the garden) for dessert tonight.
Actually it was only Sam who had the snow.
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Quite a lot of snow has fallen this morning but now stopped and has not setteled. The snow on the ground is slowly thawing so roads should be no worse. Yesterday I drove the Portsmouth and back. While it was snowing in the afternoon the traffic was keeping the roads clear.
I would worry about snow at night coupled with below freezing temperatures. The gritters have done a good.
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We are still planning a Friday afternoon/early evening arival. Will phone Paul to confirm state of roads.
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That's great Si. Beds available at ours. My arrival home on friday will be delayed slightly by virtue of my work James Bond themed "christmas" party. Was thinking wet suit might be appropriate attire but apparently the boss is on my table so probably should wear something more conventional. Anyway, there will be food available irrespective of my absence/delayed and potentially inebriated arrival
;D
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Are you going as m?
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We are still planning a Friday afternoon/early evening arival. Will phone Paul to confirm state of roads.
Roads and motorways are all clear around here and it is due to get warmer towards the weekend so should be fine.
Could we have a quick roll call with who are bringing boats, an 18 wants to join us and I would like to check if we have enough room
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Are you going as m?
Seriously? I'm not sure what that says about your impression of me Phil!! It's not exactly what I had in mind...
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Sweet dreamzzz is still planning on coming. We can cut 6 foot off that18 as it looks like Roland is running out of materials!!!
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Surely moneypenny
Paul already suggested cutting the boat in half, i am less keen on this idea
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Paul already suggested cutting the boat in half, i am less keen on this idea
Hold on gents - A 9ft skiff made this way would still weigh more than a Cherub :-)
Probably should admit I have enough "materials" to build 2 boats, just a question of if I have the staying power to see it through.
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Hi,
Looking at our local weather we are going to travel down Saturday straight to workshop.
We're not bringing a boat.
See you all there
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Thanks for the offer of a bed bond girl. That sounds kind of wrong lol. But I have booked into a nearby premier inn, it seems that due to work issues 003.5 may only make Saturday now but I will be bringing Eleanor and some dodgy sails from Dean ( they fell off the back of a 49er)
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Ditched in favour of a Premier Inn. I'm sure that never happened to Ms Galore ???
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I should watch out for snakes in the shower, and spiders in the bed if I were you Simon.
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They charge extra for those at a Premier Inn don't they?
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No, thats if you want to sleep with Lenny Henry.
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First stage of Eleanor's nose job is done. The old hoop is off and the new one has been bogged in place. Hopefully the bog wil be solid enough to sand/ shape this morning. A big thanks to Paul for the help last night, we didn't get away until around 11.00pm
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I hope all had a productive day today.
Alex's NCt group birthday party went well.
I managed to write off the focus last night. Found my self slowly sliding down an icy patch on a hill towards a car coming up the same single track road. decided to stop the car by turning it into the bank on the side of the road to avoid a collision and managed to roll it onto it's roof. No injuries but pride is a bit dented.
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Sounds like the focus is too! But seriously, really glad you're ok. Sounds scary.
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Some good sticky activity yesterday followed by curry and back to chez Trim for "find a bed where you can".
Bacon sarnies and back to the workshop this morning.
Cheese should be good as new, Sweet Dreams has been having some kite system mods and a progrip facelift and Eleanor has a new kite hoop and some other little bits of tinkering. Paul C has laid up some rudder skins.
I uploaded some pics on the UK-Cherub Facebook page as we were going along.
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Looking like a hive of activity there Hayley, Shame we couldn't make it along. I'll need to pull my finger out and get working on the boat soon as otherwise we'll be left behind!
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Excellent work, nice to see child slavery alive and well. Lots of photos please !
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I now know what peel ply is!!....nothing can save you now...(strokes his white cat and laughs evilly)
Thanks to everyone, particularly Paul for the workshop and carbon rudder building wisdom