UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: Stuberry on November 17, 2011, 03:02:14 PM
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What happened to the sails Madge had?
(http://www.uk-cherub.org/lib/exe/fetch.php/boats/2646-20040219b.jpg)
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With prev owner with whom we have lost touch. They were promised with Madge to be delivered/collected on another occasion, but we have lost touch with him.
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Also asking that question.
I found those pic's on the site when updating the Madge page.
How much are you looking for the main . would be something to start with before coming up rig program once the boats sailing.
Phil. ANy parts would be use full right now. This weekend i will have some time to pull out everything i have and work out whats going on.. Most of the deck hardware is also missing so it't going to be a long project getting her back on the water.
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If (big if) my memory serves me correctly Madge Allsop was built in polyester/glass mainly by Simon Roberts with assistance from Will Perret. Davro, what do you remember?
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I remember seeing Madge at a training weekend at Lee-on-Solent about Easter time in 1991. She was almost brand new with a very neat appearance and was painted all white. Will Perret had fitted her with a short-luff rig. Can't remember the construction I'm afraid but I do remember it was Simon R. who built her.
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Yes Madge was built by Simon as a practice project before building Cheese Before Bedtime. It is foam, polyester and glass. Carbon space frame was laminated with epoxy though. Will Perrett gave Simon a financial contribution and nievely expected a finnished boat. Simon, understandably did the minimum possible. As a result some detailed finnishing just didn't happen. I recal Will moaning that Simon hadn't reinforced the edges of some side tank cut outs. I replied, that's because he thought you could do those bits, what do you expect for 500 quid? (Including materials!). Will always liked his boat numbers to end in "6". Hence Madge being 2646 even though it was built before Cheese - 2645.
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Action on saturday of the sticky weekend involved removing the rotten plywood inserts from the side decks and fore deck where fittings had been through bolted. Curiously it appeared that all these pads had been inerted after the boat was built. In each case there was a local additional layer of glass or carbon on either the top or underside of the panel. The final layer in some cases pealed off easily exposing the paint and some washers on the original layer.
Being short of foam and wanting to remove the main sheet turret we were able to re use some of the main sheet turret to fill in the side deck holes. Panels from the turret were bonded in place.
The rest of the damage appeared to be due to the trolley or local launching dings. The hull was otherwise very sound looking.
Nick has the issue of how to snout the boat. Various methods were discussed. I'm sure nick will be interested in the previously most successful method of snouting a 90's boat. The current bow structure is very similar to the orriginal DOG's structure. Moding to a full boat snout or centerline tube snout would require removing some of this bow structure.
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I have had a chat to Dave on Sunday and will be working on doing a similar mod to the first snout on pasta.
full snout with a slightly offset pole to miss the mast.
I have got some drawing from dave to get this done.
I need some suggestion on type and amount of resin, bog and glass and carbon to get this done.
as well as source of this. if any one has any input. One issue is i'm in a large warehouse we i can't use dry heat due to the fire sysytem in the rest of the building the picks up pre ignition in the air. (data centre) so has to cold cure.
any suggestion will be very helpful.
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For the minimum materials snout mod I would recommend something like the mod on Little Fluffy Clouds
If you don't need to change the current pole housing, this just adds support for the larger jib and adds minimal weight.
(http://www.uk-cherub.org/lib/exe/fetch.php/news/2642-20070918g.jpg?cache=)
It does look agricultural, but is quick to do, and does not need much material so keeps the cost and weight down.
If you were going for a full snout then from a weight point of view it probably makes sense to remove quite a bit of the original bow structure as the strength for the old forestay point won't be needed in that location any more.
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as well as source of this. if any one has any input. One issue is i'm in a large warehouse we i can't use dry heat due to the fire sysytem in the rest of the building the picks up pre ignition in the air. (data centre) so has to cold cure.
Does this rule out:
- A fan heater in a tent made from a sheet of plastic over the bow
- An electric blanket (bed type) placed around the bow and then a coupel of thick blankets over the top
The 8200 resin I have loads of needs a bit more of a post cure.
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If a fan heater or even electric blanket aren't allowed you can use a hot water bottle under the insulation. It's fine for relatively small jobs.
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I think I can get away with the electric blanket idea. Sneaky sneaky.
Any thoughts on sourcing resin/ foam as I'm keen to get started on these small jobs.
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You are welcome to dig around to offcuts box at ours. There is foam and bits removed from Born Slippy's tanks. There should be enough there, if not we will be generating plenty more over the next few weeks. Nearer to you it might pay to spend some time and get some pre-laminated panels from Beans :-).
We also have resin that we can decant at "Wiz cost". The resin is 8200 and will just about set overnight in a cold garage. However it will not achieve full structural strength without a period a little warmer (the Matrix web site has the details).
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If you were going for a full snout then from a weight point of view it probably makes sense to remove quite a bit of the original bow structure as the strength for the old forestay point won't be needed in that location any more.
Were I doing one I'd probably do much the same again as I did with Halo last time. Pics on here in the projects section. Although it does mean chopping a lot of structure it also has the advantage that you can move forward the aft support bulkhead for the pole, which gives you more space and thus less or no pole in the cockpit. I wouldn't do the deck beams the way thay are on those photos: I reworked all that a couple of years later when I put the mast stump in, but I can't quite remember what I did. I think I had the (new) central spine end up on a big carbon tube right across the foredeck which was both the tail of the kite chute and a big structural member, but I don't have any photos of that... Halo of course is not in the country to check, indeed may not exist at all any more...
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work continues.
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OK that wins. At last a bigger space than the "Room of requirement" in Bethnal Green.
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Is this an upload fail? The link doesn't work for me.
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Halo of course is not in the country to check, indeed may not exist at all any more...
Kakou appears to have saved her from an abrupt end. Rudder stock the main issue now I think:
http://www.breizhskiff.com/forums/2-skiff-et-qart-de-la-navigationq-en-skiff/125294-retour-dhalo-jones.html#125438
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HI Guys.
I'm looking at making a new pole for Madge. I'm organizing to get the class mandril from Phil.
I was wondering if anybody would like to join me on a weekend to help me put one together. Any previous experience would be helpful to the novice i am.
I would be building it in my currently rather large boat shop in Havant. (PO9 1SA)
any help would be grateful and beers will be provided.
PM if you are keen.
thanks
Nick
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So after some slow progress I have finally finished the new cradle and trolley.
So next up the pole and snout... Slow progress...
Photo to follow(can't post them from iPad. >:(
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So last night Tom and I layer up madge's new pole.
looking good so far.
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thanks Tom
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s
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x
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s
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photo's of the new trolley
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Nick and team!
Well done it all looks good from here.
I would consider the delrin inserts in the snout that have been discussed elsewhere recently. Carbon does not slide on carbon or paint for long before one of the surfaces starts to wear and friction increases.
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so next step desk off and to get the pole off thte mandril
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right.
Got it of the mandril with help of a steel bollard and the van.
got it off in one piece with no damage to either.
I have also managed to get the draft paper out in one hole piece. so could possibly be reused.
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Having unwrapped the pole I have a total weight of 2.17kgs for the 3m tube.
Our cloth/resin breakdown before the build is as follows.
Cloth 1.05kg
Resin 1.254kg
So came put quiet well.
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http://youtu.be/7Stz18fehjg (http://youtu.be/7Stz18fehjg)
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Nice :-)
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HI Guys.
Need some help. Can someone point me where to get some foam to build out the sides of my new snout and to replace the foredeck that was cut away to add the tube. Need to find somewhere near Portsmouth (south coast) i can get hold of this during this week.
Please also suggest a thickness and a brand as i'm clewless on this foam stuff..
I have a long list of things to build before the boat is sailable, this is the largest bit at the moment.
thanks for your help.
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You could try marineware (www.marineware.com/ (http://www.marineware.com/)) in Southampton, I think they stock Corecell, not sure exact grade but around 80 kg / cubic metre. I would go for around 10 mm thick, you may get away with less but you only save a very small amount of weight for a big reduction in stiffness.
Hope this is helpful
Tim
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Sounds like the amount you need is blaggable.
Foam has a thickness (5mm, 8mm or 10mm usually) - this is probably 8mm.
Foam has a density (60kg/m3, 80, 100, 200, 250) - this is probably 80.
Foam has a material (polyurethane or polystyrene or others) - probably PU.
Foam has a make (airex/herex is one. Divinycel is another). This doesn't matter too much.
If you know the material (=PU), you can may be guess the make. If you know the make you may be able to get the density from the colour.
The following may be wrong, but here is my guess:
It is 8mm thick. The foam feels like stale bread when you crush some between you fingers. If green it is 80. If brown 60 kg/m30. I think this is for divinycel, but I could be wrong.
We have a box of foam you can rummage through in London and take what you need. Noycey is nearer to you.
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I have been helping Nick a bit so far but sadly I am not in the foam business myself (I should have blagged foam offcuts when I left the boat builders but didn't really think about it at the time!) We don't really need a huge amount for the snout as you say, but not sure who would have any nearby.
Next time I am in London I may well pop round and have a rummage in the box though as I expect there are some other bits and bobs which could be done with with offcuts (transom extension for example).
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Same true if pasing by Bristol. Nick sorry I should have made you detour form Thornbury.
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The simplest way is to measure were you have cut the deck back. I recall from when we repalced the rotten wooden pads with foam the aft end of the deck was thicker than the 8mm off cuts that we used so it could be 10mm.
I reccomend using the same thickness to continue the deck as this will avoid voids or kinks in the fibres where you transition from thicker to thinner foam. There is little weight penalty. I can't remember the colour but don't think it was green. The Airex C70 foam is green for 80kg/m^3. That's what we used to build E-Numbers. The high density 200kg/m^3 airex is a light brown and useful for foils.
Trident foams in the penines are now the suppliers of Airex. Imag in Dursley sold up to them so I can't go and collect locally.
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Hi guys.
At the moment the big focus is to get sailing for the nationals. With that I may not be complete 97 rules due to what sails I have or I can get me hands on.
With that in mined the only sail I'm still missing as a kite. If anyone has a kite no matter the size or the state(will repair if needed). And is willing to part with it for a small fee please let me know.
Thank you for every bodies help in getting this boat completed.
N
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I have two old kites in my garage. I have never hoisted them and don't know what their shape is like or what size. I think one needs a some small repairs. I can do a non colour matched repair and post to you if you wish.
I can measure the luff, leach and foot for you if that helps.
Not bothered about cost assuming that postage is reasoanble.
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HI Guys.
I'm wanting to do a work party this weekend on Saturday. If anyone would like to join me.
Focus will be getting the snout and foredeck clad and looking like normal.
Hit me up with your keen to help. (which is much need at this point).
Thanks.
Nick
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So Jib track molding is pretty much finished.
working on the rudder stock next.
What are peoples thoughts on attaching the tiller. Angled or straight.... going straight will loose a bit of depth on the blade and being a narrow cord this could detrimental.
Let me know your thoughts
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Looking good.
Angled loos like the simplest solution with the gantry below the transom bar.
All depends on how it will work while sailing in the boat though.
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Hmmm. As Dave says, to keep the tiller against the gantry (important to not bend the pin and to keep the max of the blade in the water), it looks like you will need an angled tiller.
Sorry to be a bore, but with the tiller angled up like that the front end of the tiller will be v high, which means the outboard ends of the extentions may trail in the water. This is important and is the reason Antidote's twisty grip kit is below, rather than in the tiller. Makes a huge difference having the end of the leeward extension a couple of inches higher.
If that tiller is alu, then cut it at half the angle of the bend you want, rotate the distal part 180 degs and reattach. Suggest 4 little bits of alu, pref from a tube and pop rivet. You can epoxy and glass (not carbon!) it back together, but rough it up immediate before you do it, and once you have done it, rivet the alu to the glass cuff piece both sides of the join.
If carbon - much easier!
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I still need to make a tiller from scratch so open to suggestion on angles and shapes
will be carbon.
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If you have yet to build a tiller I think that I would go for an S shaped tiller. Keep it horizontal at the stock to preserve the depth of the stock, then an angled section to bring it up over the transom bar, and then back to horizontal so the tip does not go too high and drag the extentions.
It is worth checking to see if the tiller hits the side deck before getting the carbon out, as this may restrict your steering angles. You could do the angles as Will suggests by cutting a tube, however using foam would let you use curves which might look better.
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From the comments above which I agree with you want the inboard end of the tiller as low as the side decks allow.
If you are using a pivoting stock around a fixed pin you could have the situation the the tiller is lower than the side deck with negative foil on. This is ok so long as you will not need negative foil at the start or in light airs.
For a fixed foil the tiller extensions will be broadly horizontal with the tiller just above the side deck. We found this a little low on Slippery but you also need the steering anlges. I had a tiller length of 600mm forward of the pivot pin.
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work goes on.
tiller near completion.
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i
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apolgies for the upside down pictures.