UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Sailing Stories => Topic started by: Greg on June 18, 2009, 08:30:31 PM
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So after buying scumbag, we decided to fix all the little bits just before we go on the water.
So far we have done some filling of the hull, painted the spars black ;D , filled the mast (only a little), fixed the end of the spinniker pole (which was split!!?!?!), and now we've primed the foils, ready for a respray. Also, we're currently coating the mast, which was going to be with epoxy, but its too thick, so we'll find something else.
So hopefully she'll be sailing soon.
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Cool. Rename the boat back to it's original; Domino
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Yes please put its name back to its original 'Domino' much much cooler name and its good for the boats history.
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We could, but I think Dave has some names of his own.
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I'm backing Eddie in the cool stakes... I like 'Scumbag'. Anyone that sails a twin wire Cherub at 11 years old knows a lot more about being cool than any of us old farts. I say stay with what the cool ones says and keep the name as 'Scumbag'.
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Good to see you guys today at the club. How did it go?
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Well 'eventful' and 'steep learning curve' are a few words that come to mind...
But all in all good fun =D
One of the main things we realised is that you can't really turn with just the rudder, its about weight distribution.
And don't worry, we did christen her, but it seems like she christened us...
That reminds me, how many youth sailors actaully are there among cherubs?
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Im 15 and have just got/"bought" cheese before bedtime, and am planning an attack on the nationals with another 15 yr old :) XD is that youth enough?
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Well I'm (just barely) 16, but its nice to actually see some youth sailors around. You bought Cheese? We wanted it, but our budget wouldn't allow. Hopefully I'll get to the nationals, but I might try and crew for someone, seeing as our boat might not be ready, and my crew might not be around either.
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What excellent bits of news to top off a really great weekend at Sheppey. I am so sore and sunburned!
The weather was great - except when we were racing. Very peculiar to have good breeze before and after the racing but none during - what does it mean?
Anyway - much fun was had by all with big mixups and place changes. Very demanding stuff.
So Platypus/Domino/Captain America/Scumbag went sailing and had a good time. About steering, you are bang on that the rudder alone is not much good, especially for bearing away. We pretty much dump the main off completely (both sails if it is windy) and heel the boat over towards us loads for the bear away. Even if you don't do that, just keeping the boat really flat will help you steer. Stick at it!
The other bit of news is a new home for Cheese - fantastic stuff.
The Suicide Blonde boys had a good time too on Saturday with the odd blast, but only when there wasn't any racing....
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The weather was great - except when we were racing. Very peculiar to have good breeze before and after the racing but none during - what does it mean?
Stuck between sea and land breeze.
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Yeah, for us its about teamwork and having a crew that knows what to do =D
But its just gonna take some practice, although i did notice that it does roll-tack very nicely, and is so much easier than the fireball (our previous boat).
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The weather was great - except when we were racing. Very peculiar to have good breeze before and after the racing but none during - what does it mean?
Stuck between sea and land breeze.
In the morning on both days it was westerly, and in the afternoon on both days it was westerly, with very light NW-SWly in between. Not typical of a sea-breeze gradient breeze situation. Also it was overcast for much of both days too - not typical seabreeze weather. Further, there was no sign of wind anywhere on the estuary, whereas a sea-breeze/gradient breeze (I don't think you mean land breeze - this is the thermal opposite of the sea breeze you get just before dawn as land cools and the sea is warm enough to make thermals - pretty much the province of the tropics. Lord Cochrane daringly used the land breeze to sail some French ships he had just captured out of a caribbean harbour. But I digress) is expected to be less than a mile wide with the wind in opposite directions on each side. Not what we saw.
My explanation for Saturday is as follows: There was a Wly breeze of 6-10 knots when we set out at high tide. It was predominently overcast but with occasional patches of sun. The cloud up above looked like it was raining, but I don't remember any. (I am told that in a fair fraction of rain showers, none of it gets to the ground - it evaporates before it gets there!). Clouds which are raining have air falling out of the bottom and fanning out when the air hits the water, so to leeward (as we were then) there is more wind, and once the cloud is past, there is less. That could have taken the wind down to 5kn, say. Add to that the tide pushing us all downwind at ~1-2knots and you have very little wind. In the middle of race 2 Lucy and I saw another raining cloud travel the length of Sheppey about 2 miles to our south. As it approached we had a bit more wind, but this time from the SW. As it continued past the wind went round nearly to the S. At this point the course was reset by the race officer.....in time for the gradient wind to re-establish itself from just S of West. All of this was on the background of a building ebb tidal stream.
Anyway, my question was more rhetorical.
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although i did notice that it does roll-tack very nicely
Hmm you may find this one less advisable when it starts to blow :o
(Wow for the first time one of these smiley things actually looks appropriate - although it is nearer H's especially annoyed face when I try to Gybe without getting the boat flat first)
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The weather was great - except when we were racing. Very peculiar to have good breeze before and after the racing but none during - what does it mean?
Stuck between sea and land breeze.
In the morning on both days it was westerly, and in the afternoon on both days it was westerly, with very light NW-SWly in between. Not typical of a sea-breeze gradient breeze situation. Also it was overcast for much of both days too - not typical seabreeze weather. Further, there was no sign of wind anywhere on the estuary, whereas a sea-breeze/gradient breeze (I don't think you mean land breeze - this is the thermal opposite of the sea breeze you get just before dawn as land cools and the sea is warm enough to make thermals - pretty much the province of the tropics. Lord Cochrane daringly used the land breeze to sail some French ships he had just captured out of a caribbean harbour. But I digress) is expected to be less than a mile wide with the wind in opposite directions on each side. Not what we saw.
My explanation for Saturday is as follows: There was a Wly breeze of 6-10 knots when we set out at high tide. It was predominently overcast but with occasional patches of sun. The cloud up above looked like it was raining, but I don't remember any. (I am told that in a fair fraction of rain showers, none of it gets to the ground - it evaporates before it gets there!). Clouds which are raining have air falling out of the bottom and fanning out when the air hits the water, so to leeward (as we were then) there is more wind, and once the cloud is past, there is less. That could have taken the wind down to 5kn, say. Add to that the tide pushing us all downwind at ~1-2knots and you have very little wind. In the middle of race 2 Lucy and I saw another raining cloud travel the length of Sheppey about 2 miles to our south. As it approached we had a bit more wind, but this time from the SW. As it continued past the wind went round nearly to the S. At this point the course was reset by the race officer.....in time for the gradient wind to re-establish itself from just S of West. All of this was on the background of a building ebb tidal stream.
Anyway, my question was more rhetorical.
That's lots of words... I talk in pictures...
I meant you may have been place @ 'A' on the diagram
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Platypus boys: Did you take any pictures?
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Pictures or words?
Who cares the theory is fine but it really doesn't help when you play the odd's of theory and still loose.
It is just like a 100 to 1 shot winning the National (great if you bet on it).
It made the racing great fun and some of the closest we have had for some time.
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No sorry, we were going to take a camera, but we had noone to take photos, as there was some oppie event, but fortunatly they had finished before we hit the water.
We need to find somebody to take some pics, but I might take some tomorrow, as she's in our car port at the moment (we're doing some work on her before next weekend).
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Re Scumbags : Yep, that certainly was an interesting experience on Sunday. My fault for both capsizes - no.1 didn't bring the dagger board up fast enough going over the shallows and no.2 didn't sort the kite out before raising (tangled up after the 1st dunking!).
I can see why the slick chaps in the class go for racks rather than wings. We've got so much bouancy when we go over, it needs a couple of tame sumo wrestlers on the dagger board to get her back up. Or maybe there's a special technique? The Fireball's about half the width and I can get her up on my own!!
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That is when the mast isnt dug in...
Theres probably some secret Cherub thing that you have to go to the nationals for, but I was very surpised to find that both of us still struggled (alot) to get it righted.
Anyway, once the balancing and technique is sorted, we'll be fine! (hopefully).
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If the Kicker is still on the sail will hold a massive ammount of water making things a struggle.
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Same but even more so with the jib. The crew needs to blow the jib totally off as it will catch more water than is frankly believable. Using the RYA - hold the jib sheet whilst on the centre board - therefore simply does not work. We grab the spinni sheet either side of the bolck (ie. two ends so it is not pulling the kite out)
H can bring Born Slippy back upright (she is under 45kg) without too much drama. I can't if the jib is in (I'm +90kg)
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maybe thaat will work on cheese 2??? i weigh 70kg and had trouble getting her upright last weekend, ill try loosening the kicker next?
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Let everything off. Jib, cunningham and kicker, definitely make sure the kite is stowed if that is up. Use the kite sheet to hang out on the board and it will come up easy. I have righted my boat from the water just by pulling down on the daggerboard before so it can't be that hard! ;)
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Theres probably some secret Cherub thing that you have to go to the nationals for.
A week of sailing with other Cherubs does help. But the nationals is just a whole bag of fun rolled into a week.
After dunking it a few times you'll find it does get much simpler.
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maybe my dad hanging on to the centerboard castle wasnt helping then ;)
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Both me and my dad were hanging on it, and it made virtually no difference.
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Hmmm. I can't explain this for certain, but here are some ideas:
1) The actual weight of the sails and spars is about 20kg, usually a lot less than that, and yours are light ones.
2) The height is less than 7 metres, but the centre of mass is probably less than 3.
3) You plus your dad have got to be more than 100kg.
4) Standing on the board your lever length is probably about half a metre.
5) If you have trouble bringing the boat upright, this is down to the lever keeping the boat down exceeding the lever lifting it up.
6) Rig lever = 20*3=60kgm
7) Crew lever = 100*0.5=50kgm
8) Suddenly it is plain why you have to lean back a bit!
9) You said you and your dad were hanging on to the board. If you weren't standing on it, not all your weight would have been pulling down on it. Any part of you that it is in the water will be floating and not pulling down. If you don't believe me ask Archimedes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy) (watch out though - this page has a mistake in it under 'compressive fluids')
10) Dynamic effects. When there is lots of water around, even quite a big force will cause v slow acceleration which may be hard to notice. This means standing on the board and waiting a long time may help.
11) Kicker and jib sheet can cause the sails to hold a lot of water. Let these right off, as Born Slippy said.
Keep at it - and come to the nationals for maximum exposure to all kinds of high performance sailing techniques, overlaid of course by a generous helping of sensible and responsible behaviour.
(http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/lib/exe/fetch.php/people/social-20070730a.jpg?w=350&h=&cache=cache)
(http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/lib/exe/fetch.php/people/social-20070730b.jpg?w=350&h=&cache=cache)
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Christophe is the best one!
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Thanks for the info Will, it's broadly stuff we've used with other difficult boats. Normally we've managed to bury an aluminium mast into Burghfields thick lower eco-system (weedbed) but fortunately Scummers lays flat on the water. Well I say flat; the bouancy of her lower wing floats her really high in the water creating an angle of about 5-10 degrees between mast and water which has to be overcome. Anyway, that was our first play with her and I'm sure we'll have plenty of time for practice before the Nats, especially if we try capsizing close to the shore so that Daryl can ply us with helpful comments/abuse!!! I was surprised with the number of sailors that came up to us and said "I used to sail Cherubs"; I'm not sure I believe them because having sailed a Cherub, how could you sail anything else ???
Whilst Daryl rather likes the name "Scumbag" (must be an Arctic Monkeys fan) other more apt names have appeared on the horizon. The most recent falls in line with a Cherub trend to utilise names from that great 70's comedy series. "Norwegian Blue" and "Spanish Inquisition" could be joined by "The Argument Clinic". Five minutes of viewing 'cockpit cam' would convince anyone why this would be a rather apt name!!!! But the jury's still out on this one.
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Anyway, that was our first play with her and I'm sure we'll have plenty of time for practice before the Nats, especially if we try capsizing close to the shore so that Daryl can ply us with helpful comments/abuse!!!
You know the comments / abuse won't come from me ;)... it'll be from the chorus of pint holding members on the perfectly positioned club balcony. ;D
I did notice she does float a little high the other day. Just after you decided to make a dash across the shallows ( underwater wall ). You must be to used to having a centerboard in that 'Ball' of yours! Doesn't look like she floats higher than most production boats though. I think if you make sure you let everything off like the other posters have said it will be much easier. If you have difficulty getting on the board with the trap harness you can always rig some righting lines with an extra line with a foot loop in the end to aid getting on the board.
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Argument clinic! Fantastic!
"I've told you once!"
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any chance you commenting on PBO thread Will?
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I've been trying to remember, its not asif we never capsized it !
I think the key is where you said "hanging" off the centreboard. Thats not gonna work I am afraid, you have to stand on it and get some spinnaker sheet (as roland suggested) - then she'll pop up no trouble !
Yes, the board floats quite high, but it'll keep you fit clambering onto it ! The other advantage is that as it comes up you can swing a leg over and get in, miles better than having an upright boat and 2 bods outside it, cherubs can be a bit tricky to get back into when they catch a gust and the tiller extensions are wrapped in the mainsheet....
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It wasn't really hanging, crew was standing and I was holding onto the bottom of the daggerboard, but at least now we can try some more stuff.
And now the Trapeze harness has arrived I'll be able to do some trapezing now! Theres actually a surpisingly large number of pint holding members there... I'm wondering if they actually sail at all...
And as for the floating high, we did actually discover an aweful lot of water in the hull when we got to sure... a broken seal maybe?
And I think 'The Argument Clinic' it is! One day we'll need a waterproof camera to prove how true it is.
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Water in the tank Greg ? which one ? The forward one i might expect a pint or two if you have capsized a lot, but the aft ones hiss air when the bungs are unscrewed.
I always supected the hatch in the front tank may not be 100%, if you're getting water in the front one make sure that you have that hatch on very, very tight.
If its not that then as you say maybe a seal somewhere or something, maybe sitting indoors for 6 months has helped something perish or so.
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Never thought I'd say this, I can't wait to get the boat out on the water and turned upside down! I've got a great idea though, sell tickets for the balcony, serve Pimms and put on a demonstration of two idiots trying to right a Cherub; it's got to be worth it and we could raise funds for the "Get Banshee Ambulance Afloat" Campaign. ;)
We'll replace the front seal, check the two rears, eat some more pies and hire the two sumos. What a fantastic weekend to look forward to.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM)
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Another Problem we're having is fitting the trapeze wires to the mast (they were tied around before :S )
Any Ideas how to make the hole for the t bit (I can't remeber what it is called)
I'll probably start a thread in the tech forum.
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In general, making holes in carbon masts is a bad thing as it only weakens the structure. People have various ways of attaching trap wires. On the production type masts it is standard to have a routed out hole and then the t-terminal sockets are riveted on. You could also attach a small ring to the mast with carbon and epoxy, and then shackle the trap lines to that. Other people just tie the trap lines on (as are done on my boat) For the starboard side, i spliced a dyneema loop round the starboard spreader, took the tail round the front of the mast round the port spreader and then down back over the top of the starboard spreader. I have then attached my twin wires to the end of this strop. Do the opposite for the port side. This works well it seems!
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Ah ok, well it had the T-terminal ends already attached to the wires, but it looks like the pre-routed holes and backing plates have been carbon-epoxied over where the mast was repaired.
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Now with an 'excellent' cad drawing to explain the jibberish ;D
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs090.snc1/5097_559761383768_222700417_3991457_608480_n.jpg)
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Neat! (Phil can you move this stuff to the right thread please?)
We have a figure 8 of vectran tied to itself, and the traps shackled on there where they pass under the spreaders.
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I have a wire strop which is swaged on one end into the terminal hook with the shroud line. On the other end of the strop i have a thimble secured in a loop which i can shackle the trap lines too. Seeing as i have plently of lard on board i was worried but it so far has not caused any problems
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I have a wire strop which is swaged on one end into the terminal hook with the shroud line.
I've used the swaged onto shroud solution for trapeze wires on both Queenie and Halo without problems, and few folk (if any) have ever dangled more lard off a single Cherub wire than I have.
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Ah ok, well it had the T-terminal ends already attached to the wires, but it looks like the pre-routed holes and backing plates have been carbon-epoxied over where the mast was repaired.
I think that this might be a clue that adding extra holes in that area of the mast may be a bad idea.
I have also used the loop swaged to the top of the shrouds which is the way forward for making new shrouds. If you know someone who welds stainless you could get some hoops welded to the T terminals. Although this can reduce the strength.
I do not know why everyone is shackling their trap wires on, I just splice a large loop at the top and pass the whole lot through the loop to fit in place.
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The repair was from last years nationals (I think?) when there was not enough mast tension, but I supposed having holes in carbon isn't exactly going to help.
Our current fixation is fine, even with two on the trapeze, and one waterskiing ;D .