UK-Cherub Forum
Cherub Chat => Introduction to Cherubs => Topic started by: Max McCarthy on September 08, 2012, 12:04:25 PM
-
Hi,
I am new here and am thinking of getting into cherubs, and was just wondering if anyone new of any 2005 rules boats for sale at the moment,
Thanks,
Max
-
I think there is one in France - Natural Born Skiffeurs. Its a good boat and it would be v good to see it out sailing again.
Have a look at the second hand boat list:
http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/secondhand (http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/secondhand)
I see Cheese Before Bedtime (Scientifically proven to be the worlds best first cherub is also for sale. Older hull shape than the French boat but cheaper.
Good luck - and keep your eye on this forum - there are some events going on and if you rock up you'll probably get a ride with someone if it is not ballistic.
-
Hi Will,
That is a real help, but unfortunately both of those are out of our budget.
Thanks again,
Max
-
Hi Max...'97 rules boats are awesome too and incredible bang for bucks. Lively racing scene with growing interest within the overall fleet
-
Hi torchy,
I am guessing you sail at Bartley? (I have seen Loco Perro sailing there) As I am the person with the skol moth there. We also have the old penny 14, which is our first twin trap boat. Anyway, I am thinking of getting into cherubs, as we are too light for the fourteen, and twin trapezing/trapezing whilst helming is just great fun.
Let me know if you've heard of anything else for sale,
Thanks,
Max
-
Hi Max, yes we chatted about sourcing a newer sail for the Skol...any joy?
You bought the 14 - awesome! That seemed like a well sorted boat but yes, Cherubs suit lower crew weights and the Rushtons in Atum Bom are currently showing that higher crew weights can be competitive too.
When you next see me come for a chat (bringing Loco back to Bartley today)...next sailing for us is Sat 22nd @ Rutland trying out various kites with Ade White (Sweet Dreamzz). If you're interested we can travel down together and we'll get you out in something (more room there than at Bartley)...contact me via forum or [email protected]
Cherubs are more fun than anything else I've sailed, though the old Skol Moth was a close 2nd.
-
Hi Torchy (sorry I am unsure of your name),
I am afraid I didn't manage to find a new skol moth sail, but I have been thinking about selling up the moth to get either a ToY http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/boats/dinghy/Toy/ (http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/boats/dinghy/Toy/) or this moth http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=269391 (http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=269391) and then, in the meantime saving up for a cherub of some kind, maybe even cherub 2654.
Yeah, the 14 is great fun, but we can hardly go out in it in anything much more then a force 2 realistically.
I will send you an email,
Thank you,
Max
-
Cheese before bedtime is clearly the boat for you
-
I would love it, it has to be said, however, the cost is the only issue I am afraid,
Thanks anyway!
Max
-
2654 is a Trifle going for £500...blimey! How are Trifles regarded for pace nowadays guys?
If you can't afford Cheese as long as 'Norfolk in Chance' is sound (at the end of the day it is carbon and therefore repairable...you should see what these guys do) and the sails are OK you can't go wrong.
We will race '97 rules at Bartley, so we'd be about the same speed.
One more and we have a fleet!...no pressure mind ;)
-
The only thing I don't really understand about 2654 is that I have seen a picture of her sailing with twin traps, does this mean she was a 2005 rules boat, but is now converted to '97 rules? Or is it more likely that they just sailed with twin trapezes anyway?
Thanks again,
Max
-
Here is the link: http://www.uk-cherub.org/lib/exe/detail.php/boats/2654-2004xxxxa.jpg?id=boats%3A2654 (http://www.uk-cherub.org/lib/exe/detail.php/boats/2654-2004xxxxa.jpg?id=boats%3A2654)
-
Natural Born Skiffeurs is for sale on this French sailing website for rather less than is being asked on the UK Cherub website if anybody's interested. 4900 vs 6000 Euros.
www.wanaboat.fr/models/22-cherub (http://www.wanaboat.fr/models/22-Cherub)
-
The only thing I don't really understand about 2654 is that I have seen a picture of her sailing with twin traps, does this mean she was a 2005 rules boat, but is now converted to '97 rules? Or is it more likely that they just sailed with twin trapezes anyway?
Some '97 Rules boats were converted to twin wires, usually using the same ('97 Rules) sails. The tendency is to convert them back but there's nothing to stop you leaving the wires on and twin wiring when you are just blasting in the heavy stuff.
If you don't use both wires and if your boat has 12.5 sqm upwind and 15sqm kite you are '97 Rules.
Both '97 and '05 hulls measure to the same rules.
Cherubs need the wire later than you'll be used to in the 14, also they are a 12' boat and it shows upwind in lighter winds but they are lightning quick downwind as soon as they plane. That's part of the reason that (if we race regularly at Bartley) we'll sail '97 Rules (PY 975) rather than '05 (PY 930/40) - it should keep us from the clutches of the RS400s upwind in pursuit races. Starting together with them upwind would kill us.
-
Okay, thanks, a 97 rules boat sounds pretty good then especially on pursuit races, considering there are lots of 400's at Barltey.
Also, do you intend (when using a '97 rules rig) to use only the single trapeze then?
And what would you actually need to change to make '97 rules boat into a 2005 rules boat?
Thanks for your help,
Max
-
Hi Max,
In 2005 there was a rule change which allowed for larger sails (12.5 upwind sail area was increased to 15.5 and the spinnaker was increased from 15 to 21) and the use of a second trapeze was also brought in. Theoretically, all you would need to do to 2654 would be to put bigger sails on it and attach a second trapeze. This might sound easy but you would probably need to extend the mast, boom and spinnaker pole to fit it all in and it wouldn't be a very balanced set up.
In my view, your best bet would be to buy the boat and sail it as it is currently. It will give you a very good idea of what Cherub sailing is all about, you will be able to come to events and sail against boats of a similar age with the same size sails as there is a good 97 rules racing scene currently. Once you have got the hang of it and saved up some pennies, you would then be in a great position to buy a newer 2005 rules boat a bit later down the line.
Speak to Torchy nicely and he might let you take Loco out for a spin, or failing that try and come along to the next event and someone will certainly be able to take you for a sail after racing is over.
Cheers,
Tim
-
Hi Tim,
Firstly, thanks for the help, so it seems that it would be a better idea to get a '97 rules cherub instead of anything else at the moment,
Thanks again,
Max
-
Hi Max, i have owned and sailed many different classes over 40 years of sailing and recently got a cherub, an older wooden one, Kokopelli on 91 rules, and we now have a 97 rules as well, Sweet Dreamzzz.
...Got to say the best boat and 'buzz for bucks' you can buy. Nothing touches the grin factor you will get as you fly the kite first time, awesome! The boats can be 'crafted in many ways with little building experience and there is always many willing cherubists to help with any problems. Hope to see you soon. Maybe Rutland 22nd Sept if all well.
-
In my view, your best bet would be to buy the boat and sail it as it is currently. It will give you a very good idea of what Cherub sailing is all about, you will be able to come to events and sail against boats of a similar age with the same size sails as there is a good 97 rules racing scene currently. Once you have got the hang of it and saved up some pennies, you would then be in a great position to buy a newer 2005 rules boat a bit later down the line.
This is the same advice I give everyone. It is widely disregarded (which is ok), but you will have more fun if you go 97 rules first. Flat Stanley (35 years old I think) can still deliver.
-
+1 to both Will and Tims comments.
I put a serious ammount on tension on Norfolk when she was with me two months ago. No bangs or pops and no opening cracks. Hayley would have kept her for playing in at Chew if did not already have Born Slippy for that.
Talk nicely to Martin - you are on his driving route between homes...
-
I love this picture of Cheese!
(http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/cherub/yandy58227.jpg)
-
I love this picture of Cheese!
Trying to find a reply without the words "so young" or "when John was cute".
Were John and Digby are a skinny 15 in this shot?
-
It was only January last year!! So I guess they were 16.
"Kids grow up so fast" etc. etc.
But still... "Bless"
-
Thanks everyone for your help. We are now seriously thinking about getting 2654.
Thanks again,
Max
Edit: that is one nice picture of cheese, what a great looking boat!
-
Yes, at Bartley, if racing we'll single wire.
'05 rules didn't change the hull measurements but allowed twin wiring and bigger sails (12.5sqm -> 15.5sqm and 15sqm (kite) -> 21sqm)
The hulls then developed (because of twin wiring) and bars (racks) replaced wings. Having said that the basic hull shape hasn't changed massively eg Born Slippy (still '97 Rules) and Atum Bom ('05 Rules) are both 'Slugs' but look totally different...except the hulls are the same shape.
Early 1990s boats (correct me guys if I get this wrong) pre-date a 'Rise of floor' measurement rule change and are therefore somewhat different.
Several boats have had successful 'conversions' to '05 Rules eg Cheese Before Bedtime by removal of wings and addition of racks. Loco has wings and is of a shape which prevents conversion to racks but underneath the hull is very narrow and the significant variation from modern hulls (and many Cherub hulls) is because she has more rocker....though much of it is in the bow sections and perhaps less of an issue with maximum top speed than some think. She is very fast in light conditions. It is said tho' that the big advantage of modern designs is that they go through waves downwind. Here's Graham at the Nationals: http://greensea.zenfolio.com/p998604808/h4029554c#h4029554c (http://greensea.zenfolio.com/p998604808/h4029554c#h4029554c) (he actually did come out the other side)
The other real issue with conversions is mast position. In the later boats masts have moved back close to the centre of the boat, the jib has got bigger (the main proportionately smaller) and the bowsprit longer (much longer). Have a look at Evo - any boat after SN 3,000 will do tho' http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/boats/3213 (http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/boats/3213)
NB In Cherubs the Aussies got SN between 2701 and 3000, so there has been a jump from 'Dan's Boat' to 'Banshee Ambulance'
There are 4 modern designs: Ellways 5,6 (The 6 is the Arup Skiff), Biecker1 (Ronin) and the Banshee. The Cherub Daemon is 'just' a Slug development but came 2nd this year at Nationals!
-
PS I'm hearing rumours that price is negotiable on Cheese. We nearly bought Cheese when we bought Loco. John has smaller sails which would enable Cheese to go '97 Rules at Bartley but still be '05 on bigger water.
Having said that a good '97 rules boat is a good way in and they get snapped up very quickly.
-
I love this picture of Cheese!
(http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/cherub/yandy58227.jpg)
That is an awesome photo
-
Thanks Torchy, as you said it seems to be that a '97 rules boat is the way to go for us anyway.
Does anyone know anything about the trifle design, (what 2654 is) i.e. any good or bad points about it.
Many thanks,
Max
-
All I know is that people go misty-eyed when you mention the Trifle. That would be the Flying Trifle (see boat page)....(gazes off into the distance and falls into silence............)
-
The Trifle is a pretty moderate design but has known to be quite exciting downwind. Would be a great first boat though as it will give you a proper taste of what Cherub sailing is all about.
-
The flying trifle was a desiin from the early 90's see the page: http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/history/1990s_designs (http://www.uk-cherub.org/doku.php/history/1990s_designs) for some more info about designs from that time.
The key difference from modern designs was that there was a rise of floor measurement quite far forward, this made the boats quite fat in the bow compared to more modern designs. In 97 there was a rule change which changed this requirement and lead to much skinnier hulls. The other big change in 97 was an increase in sail area, and maximum width. 2654 was modified to upgrade it to take advantage of the 97 rules by adding a snout to give a larger jib, and also wings were added to take it out to maximum width.
In terms of hull design it won't be competitive with the modern boats, however now when compared against the other fat bow boats the hull design won't make as much differeence as the systems effectiveness, and the foils, rig and sails condition.
The flying trifle has a reputation for being very fast and fun downwind, and will teach you alot about getting speed, and stopping the bow from going down.
-
Thanks all, for the info, that is good news, it sounds a lot of fun!
Thanks again,
Max
-
OK, here's my version of the history of the Flying Trifle. :)
It all started with John Lobb and Martin Harrison, a pair of Cherub sailors at Royal Vic YC on the Isle of Wight in the 1980's. John did a few seasons in Moths, and when he came back to Cherubs in the early '90's he found them too "controllable" by comparison. At the legendary '91 Nationals at Royal Torbay YC John and Martin got chatting to another Cherub sailor called Christian Stimpson who was also a professional yacht designer. They asked Chris to design them a boat with the philosophy that a lot of speed could be extracted from the new design at the expense of control. They also wanted it optimised for wind conditions at the upper end of the range.
Later that evening there was a Civic Reception by the Mayor of Torquay to welcome the Cherub fleet. This happened to coincide with a huge food fight which had broken out, fuelled by the wine in half-pint glasses which the yacht club were serving up. In the middle of all this Chris Stimpson got hit in the face by a large lump of Flying Trifle, hence the new design got its name.
A week or 2 later John and Martin were gathered round Chris's computer to finalise the design. Rumour has it that there was a lot of "Are you sure about that guys?" From Chris, and about the same "Yeah, just do it!" from the others. John and Martin built 2652 over the winter, and the original Flying Trifle was launched in time for the '92 Nationals. Patrick Cunningham, another IOW sailor took the jig and built 2654 shortly after.
2652 was fast straight out of the box and did well at the '92 Nats. The design is characterised by its extremely low rocker and concave flared topsides. This makes it particularly fast on a reach or downwind. It's also a reasonably good weight carrier. The downside of the low rocker is twofold. It exacerbates the on/off nature of Cherub performance, making it somewhat slower in sub-planing conditions. It also tends to cause sudden and unexpected nose-dives. This was beautifully described by the Trims as "Alien Abduction", the phenomenon whereby you're planing along at warp speed one moment, and find yourself swimming in the sea the next without being quite sure how you got there.
It may not be the best all-round performer, but in terms of excitement per pound it's a difficult boat to beat.
-
Thanks a lot Neil, that is a real help. It is always nice knowing the history of, if not the actual boat, but the design of boat.
Many thanks,
Max
-
I used to own 2654, hi all long time ;) for those here still that know me!
I had it, it's a flying trifle turbo. I owned her in the early noughties and renamed her: Norfolk In Chance.
Awesum boat to sail, in a breeze! Bugger all rocker so needed a big push to get going and a sweet spot sweeter to find than a sober Irishman! But you knew when you wer in the groove. I once set a crazy speed in the early days of gps on this boat.
Shame the flares have been cut off, if u had a bit much power or needed to pinch up with the kite up then it planned on the flair! Haha!
Pop up some piccies :) if no one buys it I will!! Loads of good memories as my cherub after it was Aquamarine which some frenchy burnt!
-
Hi Andy...Norfolk in Chance has been bought - see the request for repair advice.
I have informed what the name means ;D (anyone who is wondering should say it quite fast with a northern accent)
Are you close enough to Carsington to get down there at the weekend?
-
I used to own 2654, hi all long time ;) for those here still that know me!
I had it, it's a flying trifle turbo. I owned her in the early noughties and renamed her: Norfolk In Chance.
Awesum boat to sail, in a breeze! Bugger all rocker so needed a big push to get going and a sweet spot sweeter to find than a sober Irishman! But you knew when you wer in the groove. I once set a crazy speed in the early days of gps on this boat.
Shame the flares have been cut off, if u had a bit much power or needed to pinch up with the kite up then it planned on the flair! Haha!
Pop up some piccies :) if no one buys it I will!! Loads of good memories as my cherub after it was Aquamarine which some frenchy burnt!
Hi Andy,
I'm the new owner of 2654, If you can make it to Carsington on the 22nd you'd be welcome to take her out for a play and show me how she's supposed to be sailed!
Regards
Tom
-
Hi, fraid I'm down Southampton. But enjoy her, and get some piccies up ;)
General tips, keep it flat at all times and your weight fore and aft makes the biggest difference. A T-foil rudder would be very appropriate on Norfolk.
More sail area! I had her in twin wire 97 rules mode but ran a 30m kite for fun - it loved it! But again keep it flat in all directions, if the bows up its god slow - the sweet spot downwind is scary, edge forward and it'll level out and just keep accelerating! Well until it pitch poles! It does this alot! Even managed to pitch pole it upwind!
It's a carbon Kevlar hull, a little on the tubby side now but totally bomb proof!! :)
-
Hi Andy, how's life? What's your email address these days? Your old hotmail one seems to have died. I'd like to get in touch with Martin Cruden / CST since he lives up this end of the country. Any chance you have his contact details?
Cheers, Neil.
-
Hi, fraid I'm down Southampton. But enjoy her, and get some piccies up ;)
General tips, keep it flat at all times and your weight fore and aft makes the biggest difference. A T-foil rudder would be very appropriate on Norfolk.
More sail area! I had her in twin wire 97 rules mode but ran a 30m kite for fun - it loved it! But again keep it flat in all directions, if the bows up its god slow - the sweet spot downwind is scary, edge forward and it'll level out and just keep accelerating! Well until it pitch poles! It does this alot! Even managed to pitch pole it upwind!
It's a carbon Kevlar hull, a little on the tubby side now but totally bomb proof!! :)
We had her out in a force 5-6 this week at Carsington. My god she's quick downwind, scary when you get it right. I cant believe how loud the hull reverberations are! Good tips keeping the weight forward, I can understand her propensity to pitchpole in waves!