Permanently Attached Safety equipment

[daryl_wilkinson]

Lets hope the RYA and the The Marine Accident Investigation Branch can come up with something to reduce the risks of such a terrible accident happening again.

Unlikely. The only thing that would help in situations like this is mandatory carrying of 'Spare Air'. And I can't see that happening. My sympathies to the family.

On a slightly different note. If you carried  'Spare Air' could it count as lead in our rules?

[MK]

i split this thread to avoid this separate discussion impacting on the purpose of the other, i hope you don't mind Daryl

But you do pose an interesting point, it would certainly be allowed to be included in your 50kg if it was a permanently attached feature, like a boat stereo system for example... but the fact it is removable makes it a difficult one, would this fall under spirit of the rules, if a competitor always carried a piece of safety equipment and had to have it there to race legally, and did, they would gain no advantage so it would seem silly not to allow it..

[roland_trim]

That is inline with the discussions we had regarding carrying rocket flares that are "permenant". i.e. if you use them then you have retired form any racing and if included in the measurement weight they must be carried. Am still trying to work out where they will be housed on ALLC.

[Dave_Fudge]

Daryl's bought up an interesting point about 'spare air' but it's not really as simple as all that. As a Helicopter Crewman, I carry a 'STASS' Bottle (Short Term Air Supply System) with me both when flying over water or indeed when at the end of the winch. It's part of my Life Preserver and is attached with a lanyard; this is the only way you can get to it when you need it! In addition, we have to take regular trips down to the Underwater Escape Training Facility down at Yeovilton to practice using it as it's not just a case of sticking it in you mouth and breathing. When upside down (which you probably will be) water collects at the back of your mouth and in the mouthpeice, and has to be purged - not an easy task. Then there's the visual side of things unless of course you're sailing in the Caribean (I wish), seeing underwater to disentangle yourself or your crew/helm is almost impossible even with the aid of a mask (more weight). Rescues have to be carried out by feel - safety boat crews won't know the layout of your particular dinghy and only the crew will know what it is that's possibly snagging you.
I think the moral of this tale is that unless the RYA are going to build Regional Inversion Tanks where we can go to practice entrapment escapes, we need to keep our dinghies as minimalistic as possible and learn to make the decision to get off the wire early rather than later.
Anyone know if there's an accident report out for the Laser 4000 entrapment last year?

[Banshee Ambulance]

There was a report on it and I seem to remember there was a kink in a shroud or lower when the boat was recovered and it was assumed a trapeze hook got stuck.

[Phil Alderson]

I could not find a report on the maib website, however there is reference to a
RYA article on their website.

[daryl_wilkinson]

Daryl's bought up an interesting point about 'spare air' but it's not really as simple as all that. As a Helicopter Crewman, I carry a 'STASS' Bottle (Short Term Air Supply System) with me both when flying over water or indeed when at the end of the winch. It's part of my Life Preserver and is attached with a lanyard; this is the only way you can get to it when you need it! In addition, we have to take regular trips down to the Underwater Escape Training Facility down at Yeovilton to practice using it as it's not just a case of sticking it in you mouth and breathing. When upside down (which you probably will be) water collects at the back of your mouth and in the mouthpeice, and has to be purged - not an easy task. Then there's the visual side of things unless of course you're sailing in the Caribean (I wish), seeing underwater to disentangle yourself or your crew/helm is almost impossible even with the aid of a mask (more weight). Rescues have to be carried out by feel - safety boat crews won't know the layout of your particular dinghy and only the crew will know what it is that's possibly snagging you.
I think the moral of this tale is that unless the RYA are going to build Regional Inversion Tanks where we can go to practice entrapment escapes, we need to keep our dinghies as minimalistic as possible and learn to make the decision to get off the wire early rather than later.
Anyone know if there's an accident report out for the Laser 4000 entrapment last year?

(No Probs MK.)


With out doubt you are the expert in this area Dave, so I am in no way suggest anything else. But if I decided to take a 'Spare Air' on the boat surely it would mitigate the risks further even if I had not gone through the training you have had to. Of course I'd have tried it in the bath first. :-) Most entrapment issues seem to happen very close to the hull and I would imagine with a element of movement foreseeable by the trapped crew member. It's just that you can't get to the air space under the hull. I would of thought 'Spare Air' in all but the most terrible of situations... I don't know, upside down hung up on the spreaders ( god know how you'd have got there! ) would help.

Anyway it was more to do with the loop hole ( if you can call it that ) in the rules about the term 'permenant'. Being a slightly over protective parent of a 12 year old I was just considering having one of these 'Spare Air' things. As me and 'might mouse' are likely to be seeing the underside of our boat quite a lot.

[dave_ching]

Whilst trying to reduce risk in anything we do is a lord-able pursuit, it should not be forgotten that tragedy is a part of all human endeavour.
Risk is an inescapable part of life. We face risk every moment of our lives. It is an individual choice to weigh those risks up.
While I feel that the idea of carrying air is a good one for some I think it should not become part of the rules of any class. Personally I think carrying air would be counter productive for me as I would be fumbling around for something I do not know how to use.
As it is we have safety measures which have varying degrees of usefulness.
Compartments in a hull very important and a great safety measure.
Buoyancy aids. Does anyone else think these are not all they are cracked up to be? Mine spends most of its time trying to float off my head.

[Dave_Fudge]

Risk is an inescapable part of life. We face risk every moment of our lives. It is an individual choice to weigh those risks up.

Well said Dave - Darwin would be proud.
Safety Equipment needs to taken seriously if you're going to use it. In my job we regularly float around in a pool testing our kit even though it's highly unlikely that we'll crash our helicopter into the sea (touch carbon!). Can you imagine the passengers for Ryanair Flight 2278 carrying out pool drills before boarding their flight to Malaga?
Having said that, when was the last time we took our speed machines out onto the water and just practiced getting wet to see if our kit works?(actually last weekend for us - see Argument Clinic thread). As to Bouancy Aids, it took me ages to find just the right one, I now have a stock of barely used ones that didn't make the grade that I need to sell on to an Enterprise crew.

[Phil Alderson]

Having read through the RYA Report into the Laser 4000 accident I think that having a sealed mast to slow inversion would be a good idea, there could also be an argument for PBO rigging so that it could be cut if you were trapped on a shroud or lower.
Also if the person is trapped but talking then trying to keep the boat in the same position for the time it takes for help to arrive may be better than trying to help and risking inversion.

I think both crew should carry a sharp knife that can be reached and opened with one (preferably either) hand. I prefer a sheith knife that can also be put away with one hand so that you can cut, move/untangle and cut again. Many of the easy open folding knifes on the market are difficult to close so either pose a hazard after opening or just have to be dropped.

If you were going to carry spare air then you would have to be trained and practice, with it, the stream of bubbles when you purge the mouthpiece could induce panic if you had not experianced it.

[MK]

Beans' C Tech is sealed, i don't think we have ever turtled her, it certainly helps, so much so that tom has to lean into the boat to stop it righting when stood on the board if i am retrieving the kite as a result of the extra bouancy

[roland_trim]

Born Slippy's Me-Tech is sealed. Really sealed, it has two drainiage holes at the stump and 4 rivet holes at the goose and no other penetrations.

This weekend we proved that in a 5-6 with a good tide running she turtles like the best of them...

[daryl_wilkinson]

Having read through the RYA Report into the Laser 4000 accident I think that having a sealed mast to slow inversion would be a good idea, there could also be an argument for PBO rigging so that it could be cut if you were trapped on a shroud or lower.
Also if the person is trapped but talking then trying to keep the boat in the same position for the time it takes for help to arrive may be better than trying to help and risking inversion.

I think both crew should carry a sharp knife that can be reached and opened with one (preferably either) hand. I prefer a sheith knife that can also be put away with one hand so that you can cut, move/untangle and cut again. Many of the easy open folding knifes on the market are difficult to close so either pose a hazard after opening or just have to be dropped.

If you were going to carry spare air then you would have to be trained and practice, with it, the stream of bubbles when you purge the mouthpiece could induce panic if you had not experianced it.

I agree with everything you have said here Phil.

My point is  (and I'm not asking for a rule change for mandatory carrying of any safety equipment ) that if I chose to carry 'Spare Air' ( and of course I would do a training course to keep all you strangely bi-polar Hindu Darwin fatalists / ultra compliant authority lovers hair on ) could it be classed as part of my lead!

[dave_ching]

Would the air be on your person or in the boat at a fixed point?
if it is at fixed point how would it help?
If not it would deffinately be unfare advantage.

[Stuberry]

Really interesting thread guys!

If the other person on the boat was trapped, I don't think it would be a good idea to try taking "spair are" to him . In previous incidents fatalities have accoured to the person who tried diving down to assist, rather than to the original trapee.

Dave, on another note, I'm interested to know what buoyancy aid you now use.