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Offline peter_barton

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2010, 02:39:25 PM »
So, looks like few have a small but select posse.

Any special requests?

I suggest we have a focus and I suggest that focus is 'trapezing'.
- stances (fast, comfortable, balenced, safe)
- balance (have you got it? can we improve it?)
- coordination (teamwork)
- dynamics (movement)
- transitions (wind, wave & angle variations)
- manouvers (tack, gybe, hoist, drop)
- straight line (up/down wind, windy/light wind)

so whilst covering trapezing in depth we will inevitably cover many related skills also.
....but I am open to all other requests & suggestions

I understand we are meeting at 9.00am?

If anyone is available to come but without a boat do you fancy coming out in the rib with me for the day or part day?

Pete

Offline andy_peters

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2010, 06:47:55 PM »
Pete,

Can I also suggest upwind tuning/trapezing for speed.  Antidote were so much faster than the rest of the fleet upwind at the weekend we all have some improving to do.

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2010, 10:57:27 PM »
Areas for discussion sound good. 

I think Sarah would appreciate going through some of the manoeuvres in detail specifically gybing.

My thoughts of the weekend were that in a straight line we were faster than Usagi and Riot Van when we were concentrating and similar in speed to antidote when close to them but were not as consistent as the other boats.  We were often not pointing as well. Usagi was pointing especially high.
I have been playing around with rig tuning and don't think I have found the right settings yet.

I did find that over sheeting the jib was bad making the boat stagger and slow down.

Offline peter_barton

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2010, 11:09:57 PM »
We were often not pointing as well.

As well as what?

Gybing - yep, onto the agenda

Offline peter_barton

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2010, 11:14:06 PM »
Pete,

Can I also suggest upwind tuning/trapezing for speed.  Antidote were so much faster than the rest of the fleet upwind at the weekend we all have some improving to do.

'much faster' - Straight line speed or VMG also?

upwind speed & pointing (or should it be speed vs pointing?) onto the agenda

Offline Will_Lee

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2010, 10:48:54 AM »
I can let you have the GPS track. Was anyone else carrying a GPS?

We had the most recent foil we made: Smoothray is it's name. It is a lot like Usagi's one but the leading edge is a continuous convexity instead of having the bulb in the middle. Its the same, but easier to make.

We'd just replaced the pbo D2s with 3mm SK78. This is a bit stiffer than the pbo we had (although pbo is a stiffer fibre, the SK78 was thicker and has better load sharing properties), and stronger too. We'd increased the tension by a fair bit.

The other change was polishing the foil which Chris did. I've never really been a big believer in this (stopped at 400 or 600 grit on every foil we've ever done), but I might be changing my view now....


Offline phil_kirk

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2010, 12:32:53 PM »
To clarify we weren't pointing as well and usagi but seamed to be pointing a similar angle to Antidote and Riot van when near them.

Pointing verses speed is the debate.

I think we need to up our rig tension and perhaps try some stiffer uppers. I don't have any problem with the SK75 but I'm never looking at it to comment. Generally we have been going sailing at not to worried about the fine details of tuning.  Now we can see there are some noticeable differences between boats at different points of sail and in defferent wind strengths.

it was interesting on Sunday in the lighter airs that we were sailing as fast upwind with both of us on the wire and back over the T foil but sailing much lower angles due to the apparent wind.  The differences between a boat getting it right and a boat not in the groove were startling.

Offline andy_peters

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2010, 01:54:31 PM »
From my observations Antidote was pointing roughly similar to us (quite high compared to all other Cherubs) but going at the speed of those sailing a freer course.  We were sacrificing speed for height, Anti seemed to have both.  I think we probably need to rake our rig back somewhat but are a bit restricted on that  - eh Pete :)

Phil, if you need to contact me today (not that you should, you know where the house is) I have left my phone at home.  I will be back in Sunbury by 7.30ish.

Offline Tim Noyce

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2010, 01:59:50 PM »
Our event preparation was shocking at best as the boat had not been out since the last day of the nationals, and I had made some pretty major shroud point changes so the rig was at a very bare level of tuning as the rake had changed....

Saying that, just by adjusting the jib up a hole on the clew board, putting on a bit more t-foil, and probably due to the fact there was a little more wind we were much closer to the pace on Sunday. We were pointing higher than most, Riot van and E-Numbers especially, but probably a similar VMG as we were relatively close at the windward mark on occasions.

The other thing to look at was the tide. We went left regularly on Sunday as with an outgoing tide my thoughts were that the tide would be less inshore and so that would benefit us, especially as there seemed to be relatively consistent wind across the course. On the times we went left we met up with the other boats at the top, and when we went right with the other boats we also seemed to arrive about the same time, just having gone higher and slower (apart from Loco, who went higher still).

Getting in 'the groove' made a massive difference to pace, especially how the waves effected the boat on different tacks. We found that having a fair bit of t-foil on, Alex wiring mid to front of the rack, and me sat under the lowers on the foredeck was the quickest arrangement, (having my fat arse actually in the play pen wasn't really an option as it becomes a submarine) but that would have made tacking quicker as I was a bit restrained behind the lowers! As you say, the point to know when to point high and when to go for speed is obviously something that comes with practise and sailing against other similar boats, I think that a knot of windspeed or 5cm of wave height might make all the difference in deciding which mode to sail in. Planing over the waves has got to be better than stuffing through them?!

So, although I feel we improved as the weekend went on, it also leaves me lots of questions! First things first, I need a day sorting out the rig again as Matt tells me we had an open barn door of a mainsail (despite it looking ok from within, and the tell tales streaming ok.)

Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2010, 11:19:36 AM »
QM Training.... so how did it go?

Offline phil_kirk

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2010, 01:14:10 PM »
The training went well with a select party of E-numbers, Usagi Yojimbo and Ronin.
Since there was no wind in the morning we concentrated on land drills symulating trapeezing positions and stances, and manoeuvres.

We then had a quick lunch and went on the water in very light conditions to explore light wind sailing positions, roll tacking and Roll gybing (or capsizing in our case).  It was noticeable how wobbly the cherub is in light to no wind. Phil sat on E -numbers tiller extension twice after boat wobbles and by the end of the afternoon one break was lashed and taped.  An alimunimum laser extension was taped on after the second break to give a bit more length. There was more tape than tube s by the end.

When we did get a light breeze towards the end of the afternoon we had two hours of short races with tacking on the whistle and gybing on the whistle and investigated the different gears of upwind sailing.  If the boat was trimmed forward and could be made to reach 4-5 knots the T foil could then be loaded up by moving weight back powering the boat up further.  Wind speed could be exceeded when the gears were used correctly.

We managed a twin string, max t foil kite run across QM doing an estimated 10 knots in approx 5-6 knots of true wind. Truley extraordinary! Decided to drop before the calm looking bit at the end though.

It was helpfull just to get on the water practice some manoeuvres and explore the light wind end of the spectrum.

Thanks go to Pete for some excellent tips throughout the day and for Stu for organising the training.  Much appreciated.


Offline daryl_wilkinson

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2010, 01:17:45 PM »
Sounds good..... and sounds like we need to arrange another.

Offline andy_peters

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2010, 05:29:12 PM »
Pete is going to send me some video of the training day - right at the end the wind piped up nicely to a F3/4 (we maxed out at 15.9knts) and we went back out for a bit more tacking practice with Pete which he videoed.  The 'how not to do it' training video will be available shortly.

Offline peter_barton

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2010, 11:26:29 PM »
Debrief notes as promised as we were late finishing after the late breeze;

The day particularly tested team’s transitions between drift->trundle and trundle->drift. Recognising ands acting on these transitions is vital . Lets consider ‘drift’ is 0-4kn wind speed, sub 4kn boat speed and ‘trundle’ is 5-7kn wind speed and 5-6 boat speed (also know as the lighter end of underpowered mode)

Drift
In drift mode we have weight a long way forward with bow corner deep in the water to raise the stern reducing wetted area. Invariably this involves crews in front of the mast. We might also heel to leeward to further reduce wetted area and help fill sails. A hull trimmed forward like this will make a T foil trimmed fully on fairly neutral, ideal for very low speeds were it is not working effectively.
Upwind we will have kickers slack controlling leach by mainsheet alone, if the leach still hooks (Usagi) consider adding cunno (that looked like it worked) & slackening battens, maybe even adding uppers tension. We need to help the air exhaust, giving us full control of the leach via the mainsheet.

drift->trundle
As we accelerate through about 5kn boat speed the T-foil can start to work for us. Also the ‘sticky’ of the wetted area is broken. So there is no need for the bow corner deep plus the T foil is now pushing the bow down. Therefore the movement of righting weight outwards is a diagonal one, backwards. Move back until the bow corner is about level with the water surface. This might involve the crew moving from amidships in front of the mast to the racks in line with the shrouds or the helm moving back in along the racks in a high wiring mode. Beware of moving out and back to far ands too fast at this stage flow over the foil might be fragile and being over zealous might break flow over foils and sails and stop you dead.
As we accelerate the aim is to pull the boat square upright (presuming it started as heeled in drift/acceleration mode) for the foil to properly work for us.
The hull heel, hull trim & leach control of this acceleration phase is very delicate and needs practice to really get the feel of how to most effectively accelerate into the different form of sailing.

trundle->drift
Similar in reverse. In both drift and trundle modes as a rule you wont go much slower if you have your weight too far forward but you will go A LOT slower if you have weight to far back. As you decelerate in a lull the combination of low hull speed and no foil lift will sink the transom stopping you dead if you don’t move forwards quickly.

Mainsheet
I prefer to hold the mainsheet myself when the crew goes onto the bow in drift-trundle mode as I think one person alone can coordinate it better (easier communication between heel, steering and mainsheet trim) and it is easy enough to do in light winds. (Apologies crews union).
If crews do control the mainsheet in light winds very good communication is necessary to save choking the leach too early in the acceleration phase, thereby never accelerating.
Consider ease of trimming and ease of vision of leach. E-Numb3rs - At one point Sarah was trimming mainsail from under the ratchet (little vision, awkward dynamics and no feel for the boat there) whist Phil was wiring. I suggest you either swap your positions or swap the mainsheet to Phil.

Downwind T foil
As a rule keep it hard on until you get scared. As the bow goes down in increasing breeze walk ALL the way to the (very) back progressively until neither of you can go any further. If you are still afraid start to ease it. In flat water at QM for example you will keep it fully on much longer than you might in waves.
Downwind, before you have enough speed for the foil to work effectively you might match RS800 speed but you will need to do bigger angles to achieve it. After you have enough wind & speed for the T-foil to work effectively your goal is to still be a similar speed to RS800s but this time at a lower angle. This is due to lighter boats, lighter sailors, and an effective T-foil compounding that lightness enabling to keep the boat planning at a lower angle - downwind we are trying to sail as low as possible whilst still planning.

On E-Numb3r’s light wind tight twinning reach they initially had no T foil and were 1.5 wiring with the bow up. Phil pulled the T foil on hard the bow ‘bit’ down, the transom lifted and Phil immediatelty had to get his full weight outboard, then 2 wiring. So it powered them up. (If you need to point higher let some off again) .

In gybes, in trapezing conditions with the T-foil fully on, as you move forward to cross the boat the boat will steer around the bow with the transom feeling pretty light. (This may be worse for T-foils rather than Ronin’s ‘+’foil due to the length of leverage that the lifting surface is below the hull so suggests Jo Richards re his N12 design). This can feel can feel precarious and as it gets windy enough to upset you consider letting the foil of a bit in the gybes. Beware of letting it all the way off as in ‘sea anchor’ mode it will slow you down considerably loading up the main to give you a whammy coming out of the gybe.
If you are not sure how windy it is re T-foil position before a hoist have it in a cautiously off position before the hoist then pull it back on as much as you dare asfter you are settled with the kite filling and wiring.

Tacking - keep mainsheet fully in when entering the tack, it will;
1)   Help turn the boat into the wind (therby helping getting you through a tack when the wind is up)
2)   Keep the power on driving you forwards all the way to head to wind

Gybing battens – if you are having trouble flicking them after the gybe (Ronin) after an attempt give up and pull the cunno on to do it, easy. Better still, anticipate the problem and pull it on before the gybe. Maybe ease again afterwards. You wouldn’t lose much (or anything?) if you left it on and it would be much less distraction having battens going easily.

Usagi - your jib looked full after the wind increased, consider lowering the sheeting angle. You might have had it a bit too eased.

Usagi & E-Numb3rs might consider coarse adjustment on their trap gear of about 10-20cm (say 15cm) on the strings above the cleat.  This enables you to;
1)   go a bit higher in the light (bum should we well clear of rack when very light). Hooking on early and high in the very light will enable to move more smoothly and finer amounts than not being hooked on, provided you keep your footing and don’t swing around!
2)   go a bit lower in the windy when right at the back of the boat. E.g. when over stood leeward mark.
3)   mostly stay near the mid length of adjustment string beneath the cleat which is easier than being very close or very far away from where your hand grabs it.

Usagi- your adjusters did not look like they gave you the option to get low enough, especially after you move back.

Trapezing low when bouncing downwind will make your stance more stabe not less.

Offline peter_barton

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Re: Cherub Training at Queen Mary
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2010, 01:28:48 AM »
Before the T-foil came on. 1.5 wiring and bow is up